The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)

[Mezeh]

Alleras clearly was in close contact with Marwyn prior to Sam arrival since it demands a certain level of confidence between then so Marwyn sent Alleras to pick up Sam.

Yet it is unlikely that Alleras was in contact with Marwyn prior to prologue since Leo Tyrell tries to make Alleras buy him drink by supplying him with information he do not possess. If Alleras would already been close to Marwyn then he doubtless already knew about glass candles.

And GRRM did give some hints that Alleras would be more important in future. Not only him/her but all Sand Snakes.

[Gaston de Foix]

Character is Destiny

There's something that has always bothered me with the discussion of Jon Snow's parentage and I wonder if anybody else has any thoughts. It may be there is an answer in the many, many threads on this topic I haven't read. If so, just point it out.

Most of the debate seems to be based on whether as a matter of plot possibility Lyanna and Rhaegar could have had a child, and Eddard Stark could have raised the child as his own, keeping hidden the parentage in keeping with a vow made to his dead sister. Lots of debates and discussion break up into what happened at the Tower of Joy, whether Ashara Dayne could have met Ned while campaigning, whether Rhaegar ordered the Kingsguard to stay at the Tower of Joy to protect his unborn child and why Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped in the first place. I have my own answers to these questions. We return however to the basic question of whether R + l=J is a plot possibility.

I think the answer to that question is an unequivocal yes. Quite apart from the many clues to be found on careful re-reading, it seems in keeping with Eddard Stark's character to keep such a secret, and we know more about Eddard, at least the outset, than we do about either Lyanna or Rhaegar. I certainly think Martin was aware that careful readers would discover these clues, and wonder about Jon's parentage. I also think he expected that some readers would stumble upon R+L=J.

However Jon Snow is a major character in ASOIAF in his own right. It isn't enough to simply say that his parentage is a mystery because if we assume that at some point Jon will discover the truth of his parentage, then clearly that discovery will be an important part of his character arc in the entire series and will have dramatic repercussions. George R R Martin succeeds so brilliantly in ASOIAF not just because of intricate plotting but because of the covergence of character and plot in a way that gives to the whole series a moving sense of tragedy and triumph. Just consider Eddard Stark's choices as Hand to Robert and his (now completed) plot arc, and you'll see what I mean.

I say this because Jon, like Dany, is forced repeatedly to make extremely important, character defining choices. As a character he has perhaps the most consistent character arc in the entire series. in AGOT his vows to the Night's Watch are tested repeatedly, first because he is nominated to the stewards and then most movingly because of his father's death and his decision to avenge the murder. Maester Aemon starkly (bad pun, sorry) outlines the choices between honour on the one hand, and his wish for vengeance on the other. In ACOK Mormont questions him pointedly about his allegiance to the Night's Watch by contrasting his lowly station as a brother of the Night's Watch with Robb's position as a King.In ASOS he is again tested by his growing love forYgritte, increasing affection for some of the wildings and respect for Mance Rayder. He resolves this conflict of loyalties at Queenscrown and rides to save the Wall. He is offered much that he dreamt of when Stannis offers him Winterfell and legitimacy, and he chooses the path of honour and refuses and stays true to his vows. As if in reward for that loyalty, he is elected Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. I foresee yet a further test arising in ADWD when he is finally offered by some of Robb's still loyal bannermen the title of King in the North and legitimacy by Robb's hand.

My point here is that Jon's character arc over the series as revealed so far, is not that of a mysterious Targaryaen heir hidden in exile (we have one of those already, don't we folks?), but that of a bastard who rises high, makes allies, falls in love confronts adversity and stays true to his vows. He is a warrior and a leader certainly, the sword in the darkness against the threat of the Others. It's clear he is going to play a very important role in the fight against the Others, even if he doesn't quite realise it yet. Perhaps he will triumph, and perhaps he'll survive the fight (with George R R Martin, those survive don't always triumph and vice versa). Even so if he is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son, how is the revelation of his parentage going to fit with his character arc? Even if the threat of the Others was finally destroyed for ever, I just can't see the deus ex machina that makes him, a bastard regardless of parentage, King. Indeed I'm not sure he'd want to be King of the Seven Kingdoms, or be particularly good at it. Decent, honorable men, Eddard Stark proved, aren't necessarily the best rulers. His character arc just works as Eddard Stark's bastard son, as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, as the one who was made out of the crooked timber of bastardy and gave up his claim to a wolf, Ice and Winterfell, but nonetheless had a white wolf, Longclaw and the Wall. In this sense Ramsay Snow is an important counterfoil to him, as a treacherous conniving bastard who will do anything for legitimacy and power. So I guess my question is, to those who believe R + L= J, to explain it in terms of his character arc. I hope this post makes sense, I'm still pretty new at this board.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Even if the threat of the Others was finally destroyed for ever, I just can't see the deus ex machina that makes him, a bastard regardless of parentage, King.

He would not be a bastard if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married before conceiving him.

So I guess my question is, to those who believe R + L= J, to explain it in terms of his character arc. I hope this post makes sense, I'm still pretty new at this board.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but if the revelation led to him being offered the crown, it would be one final temptation to break his vows that he would have to resist, and the hardest because it would be the most valid change of fortune...he wouldn't be some bastard upjumped by legal chicanery, he would really be the rightful king by law....if it weren't for those pesky vows. So I don't think he would accept, and he might die without ever learning the answers anyway.

[Gaston de Foix]

eek

[Prince of the North]

...So I guess my question is, to those who believe R + L= J, to explain it in terms of his character arc. I hope this post makes sense, I'm still pretty new at this board.

I think you make a great point and I agree with you, if R+L=J proves to be the case (as I think it will), that Jon just taking the Iron Throne and everyone living happily ever after would be very disappointing. However, just as Martin has turned many of the cliches surrounding "traditional" fantasy stories on their heads I believe he will do the same with this "hidden heir" cliche. You see, I think when the revelation comes, rather than being the easy answer to everyone's prayers it's going to be a huge complication and pain in Jon's ass as he's sucked ever deeper into the game of thrones whether he wants to be or not

I think what will be very interesting for us to see will be how Jon plays the game and whether or not he can figure out a way to use it to his (and, maybe, the Night Watch's) advantage. Yeah, I know everyone says the Night's Watch is neutral, etc., but in reality they're already sucked into the game of thrones with Stannis there and will become more so. I think Jon will have no choice but to play the game. The question is can he succeed where Ned, Rob, and a host of others have failed?

[sholtzma]

Something I have been thinking about since reading another fantasy series...has there been any discussion in the previous thousand pages in these threads about betrothal and then marriage resulting from accidental pregnancy? Just wondering if Westeros has any rules that allow a couple to marry during pregnancy and then the child is legitimate when he/she is born.

[Lady Blackfish]

The crown would be another test for Jon, but it may not be enough to nobly refuse in favor of duty. The crown itself might present itself as a duty, and then you get to the thematic core of ASOIAF, the human heart in conflict with itself.

There's really a lot that can happen with the whole thing.

[mcbigski]

You see, I think when the revelation comes, rather than being the easy answer to everyone's prayers it's going to be a huge complication and pain in Jon's ass as he's sucked ever deeper into the game of thrones whether he wants to be or not

I expect that Jon's mettle will be tested again, as a parallel to the three trials of Maester Aemon. Arguably he's had at least two already, with his staying in the Night's Watch instead of riding to war with Robb, and Stannis's offer of Winterfell. If and when the final temptation of Jon Snow comes along, I expect he'll remember Aemon and do his duty first.

[Prince of the North]

I expect that Jon's mettle will be tested again, as a parallel to the three trials of Maester Aemon. Arguably he's had at least two already, with his staying in the Night's Watch instead of riding to war with Robb, and Stannis's offer of Winterfell. If and when the final temptation of Jon Snow comes along, I expect he'll remember Aemon and do his duty first.

I absolutely agree! But, when the revelation/temptation does come, what will Jon perceive his duty to be? As Lady Blackfish mentions above, it may not be as easy as Jon simply refusing anything to do with the throne because of his Night's Watch vows.

[Jon Targaryen]

I agree with Other-in-Law that if Jon is offered the crown that would be one last test of his vows before he settles in as Lord Commander for the rest of his life. In that sense, the revelation of R+L=J would be consistent with his character arc.

Moving on to wilder speculation. Two things.

I believe, because of the House of the Undying vision, that Jon will at least hook up with Dany. Probably fall in love with her and her with him. So Jon will tempted in two fashions at the same time. One is to be with his love (that is, if she survives the war for the dawn) and the other to help rebuild and restore the whole Seven kingdoms. It will be a double test.

Another thing I have noticed is that Jon usually has some help when his vows are tested. With the selection as a steward he had Sam. With his choice to desert he had his friends and Mormont deciding to ride north. With killing the Halfhand he the Halfhand himself and Ghost. With sleeping with Ygritte there was also the Halfhand's memory and orders. With killing the random northerner there was Summer. With deciding on Stannis's offer there was Ghost.

This is really a small thing. But I believe Jon will someday give Longclaw back to Jorah or lose it somehow and will receive Oathkeeper (and Dany will receive Widow's Wail). You have to admit - the names fit. When Jon is finally tested with the crown and Daenerys, he will look at his sword and remember that it is forged from Ice. From the sword his uncle, who was a father to him, carried. And he will keep his oath.

[Guest Other-in-law]

This is really a small thing. But I believe Jon will someday give Longclaw back to Jorah or lose it somehow and will receive Oathkeeper (and Dany will receive Widow's Wail). You have to admit - the names fit. When Jon is finally tested with the crown and Daenerys, he will look at his sword and remember that it is forged from Ice. From the sword his uncle, who was a father to him, carried. And he will keep his oath.

Nice. I've heard some variation on this sword-swapping before, but it's more persuasive the way you phrased it here. The names do fit.

[Ghost's claw]

The names do fit.

i couldn't agree more.However,i do not think that it will happen .

[Gaston de Foix]

At the end of AGOT, Dany promises Jorah a longsword such as the world has never seen before. I've always interpreted this to mean she will give Jorah Mormont Blackfyre, rather than Longclaw which was his inheritance anyway.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Heh, given her current feelings for him, she's just as like to give it to him pointy end first in the guts.

[Gaston de Foix]

I agree with Other-in-Law that if Jon is offered the crown that would be one last test of his vows before he settles in as Lord Commander for the rest of his life. In that sense, the revelation of R+L=J would be consistent with his character arc.

Moving on to wilder speculation. Two things.

I believe, because of the House of the Undying vision, that Jon will at least hook up with Dany. Probably fall in love with her and her with him. So Jon will tempted in two fashions at the same time. One is to be with his love (that is, if she survives the war for the dawn) and the other to help rebuild and restore the whole Seven kingdoms. It will be a double test.

Another thing I have noticed is that Jon usually has some help when his vows are tested. With the selection as a steward he had Sam. With his choice to desert he had his friends and Mormont deciding to ride north. With killing the Halfhand he the Halfhand himself and Ghost. With sleeping with Ygritte there was also the Halfhand's memory and orders. With killing the random northerner there was Summer. With deciding on Stannis's offer there was Ghost.

This is really a small thing. But I believe Jon will someday give Longclaw back to Jorah or lose it somehow and will receive Oathkeeper (and Dany will receive Widow's Wail). You have to admit - the names fit. When Jon is finally tested with the crown and Daenerys, he will look at his sword and remember that it is forged from Ice. From the sword his uncle, who was a father to him, carried. And he will keep his oath.

I guess we disagree here because I read Dany's character arc very differently. I don't think she'll survive ADOS largely because I think the point about the scouring of the shire in LOTR, which GRRM has invoked as similar to the ending of ASOIAF, is that Frodo by whose hands the shire was saved, couldn't remain in the shire or find peace there. Dany is a clear parallel here.

I've always seen her (and interpret the words at the House of the Undying) as a tragic arc, lending to ASOIAF the bittersweet ending we have been promised. Besides the obvious and numerous parallels between the Targaryaens and the Numenoreans (particularly Elendil's heirs) moreover, there is a passage in the appendices of the Lord of the Rings that I've always thought would be close to Dany's last words, in which Aragorn says that as the last of the Numenoreans he finally accepts death. Dany is the last of the Targaryaens and the blood of old Valyria and I've always seen Dany in a similar position with Ser Jorah at her side as assassin, protector or both.

It's also noticeable that George's initial name for the last book was A Time for Wolves which has always implied to me, that Dany wouldn't play a large role in the book, since the different Starks have skills, warfare, magic, diplomacy, assassination and disguise that would allow them to take centre stage in a shattered Westeros without a King or Queen. I'd be interested to know the words you interpret from the House of the Undying as foreshadowing a romance between Jon and Dany though. I see the romance between Dany and Euron (Grey Joy) and maybe between Dany and Quentyn, but Jon? If R + L is true, Jon is Dany's nephew, and despite the fact that historically the Targs incessantly committed incest, it would leave a bad taste in my mouth and I guess in quite a lot of other readers too, which isn't what you want when presenting a fairytale like romance.

My point here is that Jon's test, if it comes, is likely to be very similar to Maester Aemon's test between oath and crown. That is he would be offered the Crown by a Great Council (we've had some foreshadowing of this in ACOK, where Catelyn's proposal is rejected), and would have to choose. This is where Robert's bastards also become relevant. This Great Council can only come into play however if Dany is no longer on the scene, and the Seven Kingdoms have to decide who to place on the Iron Throne, and indeed whether they wish to remain one Kingdom. The only way in R+ L= J can work in the books is if it remains a secret unrevealed until the very end.

[Jon Targaryen]

Excellent post. Many things to respond to.

I guess we disagree here because I read Dany's character arc very differently. I don't think she'll survive ADOS largely because I think the point about the scouring of the shire in LOTR, which GRRM has invoked as similar to the ending of ASOIAF, is that Frodo by whose hands the shire was saved, couldn't remain in the shire or find peace there. Dany is a clear parallel here.

I would say, wrt LOTR, that Jon fits Strider/Aragorn and Bran fits Frodo. However, there is no one-to-one character correspondence in any of GRRM's inspirations. His work is original. But I might say that Frodo grew up and became a man in the Shire while Dany was born on Dragonstone and grew up in the East.

Also, my gut feeling is that Dany will survive and Jon will die. Just a gut feeling though.

I've always seen her (and interpret the words at the House of the Undying) as a tragic arc, lending to ASOIAF the bittersweet ending we have been promised. Besides the obvious and numerous parallels between the Targaryaens and the Numenoreans (particularly Elendil's heirs) moreover, there is a passage in the appendices of the Lord of the Rings that I've always thought would be close to Dany's last words, in which Aragorn says that as the last of the Numenoreans he finally accepts death. Dany is the last of the Targaryaens and the blood of old Valyria and I've always seen Dany in a similar position with Ser Jorah at her side as assassin, protector or both.

Good point about the Numenoreans and the Targaryens. But don't Aragorn's words come after a long reign? Maybe not. But his people were once immortal yes? Targaryens were never so.

It's also noticeable that George's initial name for the last book was A Time for Wolves which has always implied to me, that Dany wouldn't play a large role in the book, since the different Starks have skills, warfare, magic, diplomacy, assassination and disguise that would allow them to take centre stage in a shattered Westeros without a King or Queen. I'd be interested to know the words you interpret from the House of the Undying as foreshadowing a romance between Jon and Dany though. I see the romance between Dany and Euron (Grey Joy) and maybe between Dany and Quentyn, but Jon? If R + L is true, Jon is Dany's nephew, and despite the fact that historically the Targs incessantly committed incest, it would leave a bad taste in my mouth and I guess in quite a lot of other readers too, which isn't what you want when presenting a fairytale like romance.

GRRM never really like the title ATFW. ADOS indicates the war for the dawn being fought and a resolution of such. The House of the Undying vision that I believe points to a Jon-Dany romance is in the "bride of fire" triplet. It shows a blue flower in a wall of ice and afterwards it says, "mother of dragons, bride of fire." To me, this indicates people Dany will at least hook up with. If you believe Lyanna is Jon's mother, no matter who the father, this means the blue flower (Lyanna's son) in the wall of ice (The Wall) is Jon and they will hook up.

My point here is that Jon's test, if it comes, is likely to be very similar to Maester Aemon's test between oath and crown. That is he would be offered the Crown by a Great Council (we've had some foreshadowing of this in ACOK, where Catelyn's proposal is rejected), and would have to choose. This is where Robert's bastards also become relevant. This Great Council can only come into play however if Dany is no longer on the scene, and the Seven Kingdoms have to decide who to place on the Iron Throne, and indeed whether they wish to remain one Kingdom. The only way in R+ L= J can work in the books is if it remains a secret unrevealed until the very end.

However, if R+L=J and R and L were married, Jon would come before Dany in the succession. So he would be the rightful king ahead of her being the rightful queen.

[Errant Bard]

Good point about the Numenoreans and the Targaryens. But don't Aragorn's words come after a long reign? Maybe not. But his people were once immortal yes? Targaryens were never so.

I don't think the comparison is valid, but the Numenoreans were never immortals. They were granted a life something like ten times longer than other men as well as the island of Numenor by the gods, in reward for their help against Melkor. After a few generation, though, they grew arrogant and wanted immortality, so they tried to invade Valimar, so the gods wiped them out, except for a few loyalists who had fled to middle Earth. Aragorn is a descendant of the leader of these loyalists.

As an archetype, with arrogance leading to challenging the gods and then disaster, and only a few visionaries escaping, it fits the theme. But so do Mu, Babel and Atlantis.

As far as the "bittersweet ending" goes, I don't think there will be a 1:1 correspondance with LOTR either, but I think Frodo's remark will still sum it up: I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. Meaning that the heroes win, but don't get to enjoy it, whether they died or changed, and the age of magic, their age so to speak, ends. So I agree that the Targaryens will fade away.

[Jon Targaryen]

I don't think the comparison is valid, but the Numenoreans were never immortals. They were granted a life something like ten times longer than other men as well as the island of Numenor by the gods, in reward for their help against Melkor. After a few generation, though, they grew arrogant and wanted immortality, so they tried to invade Valimar, so the gods wiped them out, except for a few loyalists who had fled to middle Earth. Aragorn is a descendant of the leader of these loyalists.

As an archetype, with arrogance leading to challenging the gods and then disaster, and only a few visionaries escaping, it fits the theme. But so do Mu, Babel and Atlantis.

As far as the "bittersweet ending" goes, I don't think there will be a 1:1 correspondance with LOTR either, but I think Frodo's remark will still sum it up: I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me. Meaning that the heroes win, but don't get to enjoy it, whether they died or changed, and the age of magic, their age so to speak, ends. So I agree that the Targaryens will fade away.

You know more about LOTR than me so I accept your point there.

Your next one is also good and will probably have some application to at least Bran in the series.

[oneeye]

if the nightwatch were disbanded then Jon would be free to be king!

[Gaston de Foix]

I don't think the comparison is valid, but the Numenoreans were never immortals. They were granted a life something like ten times longer than other men as well as the island of Numenor by the gods, in reward for their help against Melkor. After a few generation, though, they grew arrogant and wanted immortality, so they tried to invade Valimar, so the gods wiped them out, except for a few loyalists who had fled to middle Earth. Aragorn is a descendant of the leader of these loyalists.

I agree that the resemblance is not exact, and my hunch about Dany as the tragic figure who is a combination of Aragorn and Frodo is intuition rather than analogy. The resemblance between Valyria and Numenor, the Targaryaens and the heirs of Elendil hasn't been discussed though as far as I know, and I thought I'd throw it out there. Tolkein is the only one Martin's influences I've read, and I do see shades of Tolkien in his work and not just in obvious things like the low frequency of magic but also in the richness and romance of their vision.

(p.s. Don't put faith in my intuitions. I thought Obama would win in New Hampshire. What do I know?)