[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Prologue - Spoilers for ADwD

[wvlr]

OK, In GrrMs new Blog he says he read the Updated Prelogue again at the WFC in NY. Was anyone there? Are there any changes from the previous readings? It sounds like he likes it a lot better.

[The Mance]

But I don't see how it could be used against the Others or the Wrights, after all the animals that they warg into are not changed. I think that Bran has other abilities that has not come to light yet, and that won't untill he get a handle on his warging ability.

1) We have learned from Varamyr that skinchangers can oust weaker skinchangers from their wargs.

2) We have an inkling as to just how powerful Bran's warging abilities are/could become.

3) We know that wargs and wights can see/sense other wargs, possibly suggesting that the process and/or state of wightification might be similar to that of warging.

From all this, I think it may be possible that Bran could have the potential to interrupt if not outright reverse the control that The Others have over their army of wights. If not en masse, then at least piecemeal. That could certianly be a crippling weapon.

[Jon Blackfyre]

3) We know that wargs and wights can see/sense other wargs, possibly suggesting that the process and/or state of wightification might be similar to that of warging.

From all this, I think it may be possible that Bran could have the potential to interrupt if not outright reverse the control that The Others have over their army of wights. If not en masse, then at least piecemeal. That could certianly be a crippling weapon.

I have always thought, and I know others have as well, that Coldhands is a former wight that has been freed of his blue-eyed curse. If the 3-eyed Crow has the power to break the control that the Others or their God have over the wights then maybe he will teach that to Bran.

Crazy crackpot time...what if the red followers of the Lord of Light can break the control with the kiss of fire and the followers of the old gods can break the control with the powers of warging. It would be an interesting conflict between the two religions as to who would get the credit and control of the forces that are freed. I don't see Mel being to happy about the Old Gods powers matching her "one true god's."

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

It just dawned on me. The Others are simply "corpsehandlers" as described in GRRM's story "Meathouse Man."

[C S]

It just dawned on me. The Others are simply "corpsehandlers" as described in GRRM's story "Meathouse Man."

Please elaborate.

Thanks

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

CS,

My post was tounge in cheek. GRRM wrote a sci-fi short story some time ago (it's in his new book Dreamsongs Vol. I.) In it the protagonist is a man who is a "corpsehandler." They've rewired the brains of corpses so that they can be controled by "corpsehandlers" to do dirty and dangerous work without risk of injury to the living. They are also used for other, less savory, activities. Those activities are the emphasis of the story.

[C S]

CS,

My post was tounge in cheek. GRRM wrote a sci-fi short story some time ago (it's in his new book Dreamsongs Vol. I.) In it the protagonist is a man who is a "corpsehandler." They've rewired the brains of corpses so that they can be controled by "corpsehandlers" to do dirty and dangerous work without risk of injury to the living. They are also used for other, less savory, activities. Those activities are the emphasis of the story.

I might have caught that if I had actually bothered to read more of the thread. Thanks, Ser Scot.

[Jon Targaryen]

After hearing both versions of the Prologue, I like the one at Inconjunction more. I like to think that Thistle left Varamyr just like everyone else and only came back because the Others wanted Varamyr too. The attempted take-over of Thistle is nice but I like the desolation of Varamyr being left to die.

[Jughead of the Round]

After hearing both versions of the Prologue, I like the one at Inconjunction more.

Maybe GRRM's still having trouble with the prologue because of the ending?

I enjoy both aspects: Thistle abandons Varamyr, encounters the Others or wights, dies and then with her knowledge 'absorbed' the wights show up at Varamyr's hut. On the other hand: I enjoy Varamyr trying to warg into a loyal Thistle, and her going insane.

Perhaps the compromise would be to have one of the other refugees that abandoned Varamyr and Thistle come back with the wights, and Varamyr still tries to take over Thistle.

[wvlr]

After hearing both versions of the Prologue, I like the one at Inconjunction more. I like to think that Thistle left Varamyr just like everyone else and only came back because the Others wanted Varamyr too. The attempted take-over of Thistle is nice but I like the desolation of Varamyr being left to die.

They are BOTH so good! Do we have to pick just one!

If I must - I guess the second because it shows the Rape Aspect of a hostile body takeover better. In part I think that he was showing us that Bran's takover of Hodor was approaching this level of NO-NO. Bran was obviously a different situation, an emergency and not a permenant thing but it was getting close.

[Roi Woodt]

Wow, I never had read this one, but I absolutely think it's great.

Thanks for your notes, it's really appreciated!

It's funny, the diferences between Varamyr and Jaqen H'gar, or better, the similarities.

All men must die.

Varamyr transports his mind towards a body

Jaqen transports a body towards his mind.

in both cases the mind is intact, while the body changes.

The difference however, Jaqen needs a death body, while Varamyr needs a living one.

The end result is about the same.

edit: I am wrong, Varamyr can't take over a body, but still, I feel there are some similarities between skinchanging and facechanging. (For example Bran taking over Hodor momentarily). They can enter the brain and influence them somehow, but they can't take over if I understood it correctly.

and

some more evidence pointing towards that bloody smart raven

[Ghost's claw]

reading all te posts has given me some food for thought.. i think the wights are nothing but Others' mounts.May be Others can only warg dead animals/humans.Infact, i think this is most likely..

are there any threads discussing this idea? or something along the lines?if yes,please provide the link.If not, i think this is worth a separate thread.

[Gilgafresh the Bling]

So has anybody discussed or thought about what this prologue POV might mean in terms of Sandor on the Quiet Isle? I had been convinced that he is alive and in the flesh but disturbingly, last night I thought about the fact that he may be, in fact, Elder Brother (this is going on the assumption that Sandor may be a warg as well). What I don't know, and I am not sure it's in this prologue POV or in any of the books: whether or not a person who takes over another takes on part of their personality too, or retains much of their original personality (Elder Brother is more "refined" than Sandor in the way he speaks, etc.). It's hard to say since we have evidence that physical Sandor still exists, but Elder Brother seems to know so much about Sandor and the Stark sisters that's it's kind of strange. It would disappoint me if Sandor did this to another human being, but Martin seems to be fond of making the characters a mixture of both good and bad, so it may happen.

I once had a similar thought, but instead focused more on Maribald’s companion, Dog. I’ve come around a bit and I don’t necessarily think that Sandor is a warg, but there’s definitely something conspicuous about Dog. To me he seems a little too cognizant and aware to be ‘just a dog’. Maribald converses with him and he seems to understand, his name, etc. In light of some of the information from this Prologue (dogs are the easiest to warg) and Sandor’s obvious connection with canines then it’s easy to think that there’s more than meets the eye going on here. It may just be another signpost that Sandor is alive and he is the gravedigger, but I suppose he could possess some warg potential and has somehow learned to enter his namesake. So, my (a)mended cracked pottery proposes that Dog is either currently warged, or maybe even the “second life†incarnation of a yet unidentified skinchanger.

...tick...tock.......tick..............tock.... sigh.... :sick:

[Sandor's Little Bird]

I wonder if it is harder or easier to warg a dead human/animal. It seems it would be easier because there's no one to resist.

I agree that maybe the Others can only warg dead things (assuming that the wights are reanimated by warging). And it would make sense why the wights could all tell that Varamyr was in the wolf - wargs can sense other wargs, right?

If this is all done by warging, the thing that doesn't make sense is this: if the consciousness is gone because they are already dead, shouldn't the memories be gone as well? Yet the wights who attacked Castle Black seemed to retain at least their memories of that place.

[valyrian dragonlord]

This training may be the norm for wildling youths who show an aptitude for skinchanging. The three-eyed crow could be simply a master of such a program, but I feel that the crow is something more. Bran going to such a program, and getting trained, would be awesome, but I feel he has a greater role to play. He seems destined to deal with whatever is at the heart of the North, so I feel the three-eyed crow may have a 'program' unique to Bran, that is beyond anything a normal skinchanger may learn.

maybe coldhands can change into his reindeer

[panther]

Thanks again to those who posted the synopsis.

Immediately while reading it, I also had the thought that coldhands was a wight that was then taken over by a more powerful warg. The bright blue eyes are an indication of others' control of the wight. But, if control is taken back from the others, the bright blue light in the eyes is lost.

Actually my first thought was to wonder if, like Varamyr, a warg could leave his body just before being killed by others/wights, but then afterward, retake his own body back from the others. The warg wouldn't be taking over another human, but only re-entering his own reanimated body. Perhaps coldhands did this. If possible, it is nice for the warg. The others make his body immortal for him and he takes back his immortal body. Unfortunately, being part wight, he can no longer pass through the magic spells woven into the wall.

[Kevin_Lannister]

this might be a stupid question but is a warg and a skinchanger the same thing?

And to panther above could your theory of a warg jumping into a otherbody to become immortal an excuse for the bloodraven fans to explain how hes around?

[kimba]

Just a few random thoughts about warging…

First, I’m curious if warging is something that is random or if it is inherited through the family. Bran can warg and Jon & Arya have shown some signs of having the ability as well. If that’s the case than I wonder which other Starks have had this ability. I can’t imagine it has only shown up for this generation. I think it would be cool if Lyanna warged into the direwolf that gave birth to the pups and then died. Perhaps that could explain Hodor as well… some other Stark previously tried to take over his body driving him insane.

I think it is possible to warg into a dead human/animal and the Others’ control of the wights is due to warging. If warging runs in the family and you can take over a dead body, perhaps Benjen is Coldhands after all. Martin cutting off the prologue at that point is interesting… staring at his body’s wight eyes… he may realize the possibility of warging back. This may not be the last time we hear of Varamyr.

I’m also curious if warging is limited to only human/animal or if you can warg into plants/trees. This could explain the disappearance of the Children of the Forest- warging into the weirwood trees. Perhaps that is why the wildlings and Starks (blood of the first men) feel something deep within them when looking at a weirwood… it is possibly that sense of “other skinchangersâ€. I always felt that the Others are Children-of-the-Forest-gone-bad. They may be pissed off at the destruction of the weirwoods in the Seven Kingdoms which have either forced them to leave the weirwood or actually killed them if they couldn’t jump out. Does it seem that the wights are only targeting humans or are they targeting animals as well? I do recall a few wight animals but I’m not sure if they were targeted by the wights. Very Lucifer-ish… a child of the forest cast down.

So I just wiki’ed Lucifer and the Latin translation is “Light-Bringer†and also “Morning Starâ€.

Interesting….

[Maltaran]

*bump*

This is the chapter George read at Aussiecon this morning.

[Ran]

Thanks, Malt.