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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Prologue - Spoilers for ADwD

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Meh, Tolkein's world-building has always bored me to no end. Dwarves, elves, etc, are just taken from Norse mythology, down to their stereotypical personality types. The cultures lacked innovation and epicness in general, and the mythology I found to be terribly uncreative and dull.

I don't want to turn this into a LoTR/Middle-Earth debate. Just bugs me when people praise LoTR as if it's god-sent, when the characterization is so awful, the plot could've been infinitely more gripping and memorable, and it could've done with a good deal of editing and streamlining.

I enjoyed LoTR, and the Silmarillion, but they had a complete lack of depth in my opinion. Character-wise, emotion-wise, innovation-wise, and philosophy/intrigue-wise.

But to keep this on topic: Does anyone know how many pages the prologue is? It seems like he included a lot of information in it, so I am wondering if it'll be about aFfC length, or more CoK prologue length?

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Suggestion thirded. Lots of people are going to miss this if it stays in the Brotherhood forum. A copy of it in the DWD subforum would be nice, IMO.

I would move it, since apparently I started the thread (i.e. Trebla using my login), but apparently you have to have special powers to move a thread into ADWD or spoiler sections. So I guess our moderators have to move it?

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I would move it, since apparently I started the thread (i.e. Trebla using my login), but apparently you have to have special powers to move a thread into ADWD or spoiler sections. So I guess our moderators have to move it?

Yes, but it seems they did move it now :thumbsup:

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Wowsers that's a great prologue. Is it just me or does the North present a far more interesting storyline and setting than the South?

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The funny bit is that the Bulgarian word for eagle is "orel." So in Bulgarian the name is something like "Eaglee the eagle."

George claims he just came up with the name, and that he does not know Bulgarian. I believe him, but what is the chance for that happening? :)

By the way it is the same in Russian too.

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This was a great prologue. I'm curious what you guys told GRRM about how the flow of the chapter was, etc. He said he was looking for feedback, can you be a little more specific about what you told him?

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The Mother: Dany

The Father: Davos

The Crone: Catelyn

The Maid: Brienne

The Warrior: Jaime

The Smith: Gendry, Tyrion?

The Stranger: Sandor

I was thinking something similar the other day, but with The Stranger: Arya

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The Mother: Dany

The Father: Davos

The Crone: Catelyn

The Maid: Brienne

The Warrior: Jaime

The Smith: Gendry, Tyrion?

The Stranger: Sandor

I was thinking something similar the other day, but with The Stranger: Arya

I said the same thing to Trebla, but his response is that Arya and the other Starks are champions of the Old Gods, so we can't include them in this theory, just as The Lightning Lord was chosen by the Red God, etc.

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I said the same thing to Trebla, but his response is that Arya and the other Starks are champions of the Old Gods, so we can't include them in this theory, just as The Lightning Lord was chosen by the Red God, etc.

I would put Tyrion with the Stranger, as he himself notes that he never prays to the other Gods for himself (sometimes the Warrior for Jamie) instead he prays to the Stranger.

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I said the same thing to Trebla, but his response is that Arya and the other Starks are champions of the Old Gods, so we can't include them in this theory, just as The Lightning Lord was chosen by the Red God, etc.

Arya is starting to be a servant of "god of many faces". That means that she can be the champion to anyone, be that old gods, the Seven, R'hllor or even the Great Other. As Jacquen, she might start looking at all of theme as one god.

Or at least I think so. I don't know religion in Westeros works.

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This was a great prologue. I'm curious what you guys told GRRM about how the flow of the chapter was, etc. He said he was looking for feedback, can you be a little more specific about what you told him?

Mainly that we were getting lost in the flashbacks. It was awkward in a couple places and didn't flow well. I don't know that we told him anything he hadn't picked up for himself already, bvut I hope we did.

Mainly the flashbacks didn't flow nicely...I'm having a hard time articulating it. You didn't always know what bits he was remembering because it was sort of a piecemeal and non-chronological set of recollections of his life. At times you felt almost jerked from one time to another.

It DID reflect the disorientation he must have felt very well, though. As a device it worked really well that way.

I don't know, I hope that answers your question sort of.

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Mainly that we were getting lost in the flashbacks. It was awkward in a couple places and didn't flow well. I don't know that we told him anything he hadn't picked up for himself already, bvut I hope we did.

Mainly the flashbacks didn't flow nicely...I'm having a hard time articulating it. You didn't always know what bits he was remembering because it was sort of a piecemeal and non-chronological set of recollections of his life. At times you felt almost jerked from one time to another.

It DID reflect the disorientation he must have felt very well, though. As a device it worked really well that way.

I don't know, I hope that answers your question sort of.

I think that as a writing device, scattered difficult to follow flashbacks of a dying man, especially someone who has been through the physical and mental anguish as this character is exactly right. I hope GRRM doesn't take out to much.

Ned's barly understandable dream sequences are exactly what makes the TOJ scenes so awesome.

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Mainly that we were getting lost in the flashbacks. It was awkward in a couple places and didn't flow well. I don't know that we told him anything he hadn't picked up for himself already, bvut I hope we did.

Mainly the flashbacks didn't flow nicely...I'm having a hard time articulating it. You didn't always know what bits he was remembering because it was sort of a piecemeal and non-chronological set of recollections of his life. At times you felt almost jerked from one time to another.

It DID reflect the disorientation he must have felt very well, though. As a device it worked really well that way.

I don't know, I hope that answers your question sort of.

Hi Vhagar!

Yea, i think that was pretty much everything we said. I did like the embedded flashbacks, but it was hard to tell which point in time you were in - for example, i got confused for a second because he would say "he got up and went to the weirwood tree," and it would take you a sec to remember, oh damn, we're back in the present.

it was also slightly confusing because of the use of names - Lump/Varamyr. He refered to himself as Lump in the flashbacks, but I think he also did a bit in the present, so that rather complicated things.

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I think, like so many others, that Varamyr is such a great choice for a prologue POV. Even just his name is cool haha. Can't wait to see of the Others have their full army yet. I predict that the Wall will fall at the end of DwD or at the very beginning of WoW. Thoughts?

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Such a major event will definitely happen at the end of a novel... either aDwD or tWoW.

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What an interesting choice of point of view character for the Prologue. I have to say that Varamyr wasn't even on my list for possible prologue character, and like many others thought it would set up the Eastern "Sons Of The Harpy" (or other significant eastern) storyline.

By choosing Varamyr as the prologue character, Martin, has brought Bran Stark and Jon Snow (as well as Arya to an extent - could this set-piece be the reason for Arya having POV chapters in both books?) to the centre of the action. I would disagree with the other posters who claim that this suggests that the threat to the North is the major storyline; because, judging from the other prologues, it would be setting up the slow burner - the storyline which really moves forward in the last act of the book:

AGOT - Will is attacked and killed by the wight of Waymar Royce, this becomes integral to Jon's story in the final part of the book.

ACOK - Introduction of Davos, Mel and Stannis, becomes important as Stannis is fighting for Kings Landing in the final act of ACOK.

ASOS - Chett's betrayal leaves the Night's Watch leaderless, again this allows Jon Snow to step forward at the climax of the novel.

AFFC - The storyline of the Alchemyst is revisited in the final chapter of the book.

I have to say this is a very different style of chapter from anything we have seen from Martin before, it is a very slow chapter (in terms of action) for being the prologue with the major action being indirect - only seen at the climax to the chapter. We do however get an important context for warging... I would not be surprised if Martin has had this planned as a set-piece from the very beginning.

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I think that as a writing device, scattered difficult to follow flashbacks of a dying man, especially someone who has been through the physical and mental anguish as this character is exactly right. I hope GRRM doesn't take out to much.

Yeah, it seems like a very good chapter content-wise. But reading the summaries here, you don't really get a sense of whether or not it flows well, or is too disjointed.

That must be disappointing for GRRM to think he finally had a handle on one of the most difficult chapters, only to be forced to reorganize it once again.

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I just reag GrrM's "Not a Blog" & it looks like he redid the Prologue a little after the reading.

It seems he made it a little shorter and a lot stronger and added something he had left out.

WoW! From all your reports, it sounded GREAT! If it has gotten better than that......

Well I just CAN'T Wait! :wideeyed:

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To echo other folks, that sounds like an amazing prologue chapter - somehow gripping and informative at the same time in GRRM's unique style. And that's just from the plot summaries posted here.

I was interested in the Bloodraven/thousand eyes and one/warg idea broached earlier and it got me thinking (not always a good thing). So given the apparently verboten but feasible warging into another human thing:

Is there any chance that Varys' dark sorcery, which is sometimes referenced offhand by characters in KL, actually involves the Eunuch warging into his 'little birds'/tongueless slave children? Or, since Varys may not have any First Men blood, perhaps he was using whatever Free City variant of warging that Jaqen may have used with the dog to kill Weese. Or something?

Anyway, cool stuff. Thanks!

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Is there any chance that Varys' dark sorcery, which is sometimes referenced offhand by characters in KL, actually involves the Eunuch warging into his 'little birds'/tongueless slave children? Or, since Varys may not have any First Men blood, perhaps he was using whatever Free City variant of warging that Jaqen may have used with the dog to kill Weese. Or something?

Considering Varys' hatred for "sorcery" and the role it played in costing him his privates, I doubt he truly uses methods that would be considered supernatural. Varys pays well for info and has an extensive network. Not to mention his little birds, it's important not to overlook those poor mute child slaves that he ferrets away in dark, perilous, and hidden places.

Oh Varys is a wizard alright, but it's all smoke and mirrors with him. His tale about his own castration sort of proves that he has little knowledge of the supernatural and despises those who would practice such arts.

And Jaqen used basilisk blood on Weese's dog. Check the "Cat of the Canals" chapter in AFFC for that one. It's toward the end, right before the Waif slaps Ayra in the face for biting her lip.

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