Benjen Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 GRRM just posted to his "Not a Blog" livejournal page re: ICJ and the prologue reading. GRRM's Livejournal page Even after all this time it still amazes me how open he is with his creative process and etc. It would seem that he feels the need to restructure the chapter a little bit. I don't think the content as a whole will change much, but rather ordering of flashbacks and etc. It'll be interesting to see how it ends up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Even Jon Snow who is 1,000 time more ambicle then Stannis couldn't get Mance to about a fair deal for both sides before his army got smashed. Now you expect Stannis who has even more resposibilities on his shoulders than Jon to talk Mance into something. There is no agreement to be had with Mance here it's give in to his demands and let the wildlings go free to ravage the already weakened north at their will killing, pillaging and raping as they pleased or bend them to your will. What do you mean by "ambicle"? In any case, you've got it exactly backwards. I expect Mance to react badly to Jon, who--from Mance's POV--is the traitorous bastard who turned on and killed Qhorin Halfhand, and then turned on the wildlings he professed to join (including the woman fool enough to love him). Why should he trust that Jon Snow will negotiate in good faith? He doesn't even know how much authority Jon has. Stannis, on the other hand, has the reputation for being rigid beyond the point of reason, and thus is somebody who, having reached an agreement, will carry it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barba Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Why don't you move this topic to DWD subforum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Stannis, on the other hand, has the reputation for being rigid beyond the point of reason, and thus is somebody who, having reached an agreement, will carry it out. From my reading of the chapter in reference, I don't think trust was Mance's main concern. Jon Snow asked if Mance could force his people to obey the laws and keep the peace, and Mance essentially thumbed his nose at both. He specifically said, "We will not kneel to you." That's not about trust; it's about obedience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arataniello Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 What do you mean by "ambicle"? Typo for either amiable or amicable maybe? Aratan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjen Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Let me rephrase. If the Others need the help of a nine-year old boy, they aren't much of a threat, magically or otherwise. The only reason Bran is of value to the human side is that sorcery has been weaned out of them. They need mature and skilled sorcerors. They don't have any - so the 3EC will have to cobble one out of his half-trained but talented protege. That's well said Bronn. But it still makes me wonder what it is that a crippled 9 year old boy will be able to do that Coldhands or the 3EC can not do on their own. It might have something to do with Summer or even Hodor, though GRRM mentioned in the prologue that "warging" into another person is considered taboo by Haggen. Likely the other wargs GRRM mentioned in the prologue felt that way too. Varamyr seems to have been quite the rogue, an evil and powerful warg. I wonder if he killed the other wargs after he killed Haggen. That might explain why 3EC didn't recruit him or any of the other wargs that he remembers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Blackfyre Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Just want to say thanks to everyone that recapped the prologue, very informative. Also, I am so ready to READ Varymar's "death" for myself, this chapter as rekindled the burning desire for ADWD that I had attempted, and failed, to push to the recesses of my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Stone Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 That's well said Bronn. But it still makes me wonder what it is that a crippled 9 year old boy will be able to do that Coldhands or the 3EC can not do on their own. It might have something to do with Summer or even Hodor, though GRRM mentioned in the prologue that "warging" into another person is considered taboo by Haggen. Just guessing here, but I am suspecting that Bran has more innate power than the 3EC, but considerably less training - even by the end of the series. And that the Other side of the battle will have enough with both powers that the 3EC will need all the help he can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Besselfunction Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Bran can go wherever he wants while the 3EC, Coldhands and the CotF must remain north of the Wall. I don't think anyone except us readers is currently assuming that the Wall might come down sooner or later. Bran's function could thus be getting knowledge that makes it possible to defeat the Others and deliver it to the people that are able to use it. Bran's warging ability is probably necessary to get past the massive host of the Others which stands between him and the 3EC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skid Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 I just wanna point out that all the books that have started with a prologue beyond the wall ended up being really great. and that Bran is one of my fav characters and storylines. Give ADWD! Oh, and do you think we'll meet a lot of wildlings that were left behind in bran's chapters? the feeling i got was that most wildlings would have no choice but to accept any terms from stannis to be allowed to cross the wall. but Varamyr speaks of refugee camps and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Thanks to all the people who posted these juicy juicy tid-bits...they are spoiler-iscious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuellar Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 The wall has to fall though. Ultimately, Dany has to come save the day, and Bran needs to rebuild the wall.... a broken boy rebuilding a broken wall. Now, could the wall break this book? I think its very probable that it has to happen next book. Dany has to deal with becoming Queen first, then come to the rescue. I have a feeling by the end of the books, the others will be tearing Stannis a new one, and Dany will land. Sounds like a great chapter though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gedo Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Interesting to clearly hear about the "True death" and "Second life". I'd guess one of Stark kids will end up in the "second life" with his/her wolf by the "bitter sweet" ending of the series? Who would that be? Bran? Jon? Arya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Lannister Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 aaahhh.... great prologue!!! but what is more important is that it seems that it is NOT the 5 year gap-thing that is slowing this book down. that is good news for the next few books. thnx for the info guys!!! EDIT: wow, only martin can be this critical about a prologue -- and not the actual content or form, but the sequence of flashbacks. but that is good news though, despite the long wat, it means we will get the best possible book! i can't wait to ADWD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaesterLuwin Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Wow, thanks all for this report. The prologue sounds amazing. The way the book had been structured, I was convinced that it was going to be heavy on the Eastern plot with Tyrion, Dany and Co. It was just a few years ago that GRRM mentioned that Bran might not even appear in ADwD at all. With this prologue though, it seems as though there's going to be an immediate threat in the north and that Stannis better get his shit together soon. Don't get me wrong, I love our friends in the east, but if GRRM still wants to finish the series in 7 books, I think the Others' plotline will have to come to the forefront sooner rather than later. More excited for ADwD then I have been in a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark Raving Mad Wolf Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Wow, thanks all for this report. The prologue sounds amazing. The way the book had been structured, I was convinced that it was going to be heavy on the Eastern plot with Tyrion, Dany and Co. It was just a few years ago that GRRM mentioned that Bran might not even appear in ADwD at all. With this prologue though, it seems as though there's going to be an immediate threat in the north and that Stannis better get his shit together soon. Don't get me wrong, I love our friends in the east, but if GRRM still wants to finish the series in 7 books, I think the Others' plotline will have to come to the forefront sooner rather than later. More excited for ADwD then I have been in a long time. Your post says it all for me too! Sounds great and hopefully will get a good balance of activities on the wall aswell as in the East. Can't wait! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybroleach Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 What do you mean by "ambicle"? In any case, you've got it exactly backwards. I expect Mance to react badly to Jon, who--from Mance's POV--is the traitorous bastard who turned on and killed Qhorin Halfhand, and then turned on the wildlings he professed to join (including the woman fool enough to love him). Why should he trust that Jon Snow will negotiate in good faith? He doesn't even know how much authority Jon has. Stannis, on the other hand, has the reputation for being rigid beyond the point of reason, and thus is somebody who, having reached an agreement, will carry it out. That's a typo i was going for amicable. However Mance doesn't hold that harsh of an opinion of Jon even after he rebetrayed the Wildlings he's still softer to Jon than his captains, and he definately show him respect as well. Stannis' rep is good but Mance isn't that hooked into westerosi politics that he'd have heard anything south of the Neck. I doubt he even knew Robert was dead and a cival war was going on. About the chapter it seems amazing from the reports and i'm sure in GRRM's words it would sound better which suprises me that he's still under the impression it needs more work. But i guess that's why he's a great author and i'm just some reader. Ofcourse part of that is the character selection though being a wildling captain, a super warg, and a kickass villian. For the Mods: I'd also like to second Barba's suggestion that this should be moved to the ADWD section or atleast a copy of it since alot of ppl who check there for new ADWD stuff wounldn't check for it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Excellent reports everyone. This still helps me in MY theory of the FM having at least some warg capabilities. "Dogs are easiest of all." Helps explain how Jargen did in the the guy at Harrenhal. Yes, I know about the basilik (sp) blood that drives all aniamls crazy, but how exactly was he supposed to have it afte being locked in the black cells, dragged around chained to a wagon, then as being watched by Vargo? When he escaped the burning building, he only had the clothes on his back. This also helps explain Arya's last wolf-cat dream. Cats are vain? Maybe from a man's viewpoint. But from a young girls? Maybe cats are easer for Arya than dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelticKevin Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Thanks for sharing about this reading! It sounds awesome and you all did an admirable job of painting the picture for me. I cannot wait! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Hill/Waters Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 It was just a few years ago that GRRM mentioned that Bran might not even appear in ADwD at all. What if Bran not appear in ADwD The three wolves (One-Eye, the oldest, and I can't recall the names of the other two) are hunting and come across three people, two men and a woman cradling her "pup" (baby). The wolf thinks that the men are the greatest danger, and they set upon them. They kill the men, and then the woman. The wolf Varamyr is inside begins eating the child, the "sweetest meat" of them all or something. It opens with a wolf sniffing. He hunts with his small sly sister and his one eyed brother. They hear a "pup" and begin to chase. They track another pack, the "pup", a male and a female. The male has a "long tooth" and the female a "smaller bone tooth". The wolves attack and kill, going especially for the pup which is the "sweetmeat". The wolves kill the man woman, and baby. We start from the POV of a wolf, out hunting at night with his sister and One-Eye, his brother. He smells men (whom he hates), stags, smoke, blood, piss. They are following two men and a woman with a baby. He remembers hunting men many times in the past, the taste of their flesh. Some carry pointy sticks and are dangerous. They kill the two men, then the woman, and the babe, who tastes the sweetest. "pup" or baby = Bran a male or 2 men = Hodor or/and Jojen a female/a woman = Meera As he is about to skinchange, the room grows colder, his hand freezes to the ground. Thistle returns. She is covered with frost and her eyes glow blue. Varamyr's tears, eyes, and lips all freeze but he is able to slip his skin. He feels animals everywhere. Birds and beasts everywhere. In particular...an elk with two children on it and a direwolf wakes and lifts it's head. As he reaches out, he is no where and everywhere, in the trees, in the plants, in the earthworms, in the owls, the ravens. He sees a great elk with children on his back, a direwolf recognizes him. elk = Goldhand elk two children = children of forest or Jojen and Meera a direwolf = Summer or Bransummer In another flashback, Varamyr remembers a boy named "lump" talking of taking another man's skin rather than dying, Haggen had beaten him bloody saying that "All men must die! Even skinchangers!" Maybe Bran died and take Hodor's skin. (that were Charming) His True Death comes as a ‘shock of cold.’ He finds himself in the One-eyed wolf, with his brother and sister next to him. Meybe Bran died and find himself in the Summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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