Platypus Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Hi all, just back from the Trinoc-con in NC and George read his re-working of the Prologue. The primary changes are he moved one of the flashbacks into real time. The flashback he chose to move is the one where Varamyr 'took over' a woman who then clawed her eyes out in an insane rage. The woman he does this to now is Thistle when he decides to leave the hut. His attempt to possess her does not go well, so he leaves her for One Eye. The rest of the prologue is pretty similar to what has been written about before. The end is really creepy now though because the wolves see Varamyr and Thistle both looking up at them and the wolves know that Thistle's corpse (with frozen blood needle finger/icicles) is staring at them with pale blue light eyes and can see them despite having no eyes. I'll do a more detailed re-read of the previous notes on the prologue when I have a little more time to rest. I did make a point of asking George what changes he had made and why he made them and most of it was about removing some flashbacks to make the piece flow better and not feel as jarring with all the jumping about in time. Anyway, twas a helluva good reading and so so so much to look forward to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Pierre Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 I would just add that I think the new ending lends itself to showing how very desperate Varamyr is at the end that he would attempt what he knows is the abomination of taking over another human-which in the end doesn't work but instead drives her insane. All good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caine Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Thanks for the reports. I didn't find anyone commenting on this, but any confirmations/guesses on the "dark sorcery" which burns the eagle flying over the Wall (then Varaymr)? Is it because of the Wall and the magic inherent in the Wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skegg Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Hi all, just back from the Trinoc-con in NC and George read his re-working of the Prologue. The primary changes are he moved one of the flashbacks into real time. The flashback he chose to move is the one where Varamyr 'took over' a woman who then clawed her eyes out in an insane rage. The woman he does this to now is Thistle when he decides to leave the hut. His attempt to possess her does not go well, so he leaves her for One Eye. The rest of the prologue is pretty similar to what has been written about before. The end is really creepy now though because the wolves see Varamyr and Thistle both looking up at them and the wolves know that Thistle's corpse (with frozen blood needle finger/icicles) is staring at them with pale blue light eyes and can see them despite having no eyes. I'll do a more detailed re-read of the previous notes on the prologue when I have a little more time to rest. I did make a point of asking George what changes he had made and why he made them and most of it was about removing some flashbacks to make the piece flow better and not feel as jarring with all the jumping about in time. Anyway, twas a helluva good reading and so so so much to look forward to. So wait, let me get this straight. He successfully wargs into Thistle as a wight, or he wargs into her as a normal person, she claws her eyes out, and she becomes a wight later? Or am I just reading this all wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Pierre Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 So wait, let me get this straight. He successfully wargs into Thistle as a wight, or he wargs into her as a normal person, she claws her eyes out, and she becomes a wight later? Or am I just reading this all wrong. I think it was she becomes a wight later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Skegg, He attempts to warg into Thistle it actually drives her mad. He fails and ends up on one of his wolves and sees his own body and Thistle wightified in his "second life" as a wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skegg Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Skegg, He attempts to warg into Thistle it actually drives her mad. He fails and ends up on one of his wolves and sees his own body and Thistle wightified in his "second life" as a wolf. Thanks, just needed that clarified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lany Freelove Cassandra Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 the other thing I would add, is that he (as the wolf) no longer sees an army of "whites." I think the last thing he saw was his former self and Thistle as "whites" they could still have been there, but they are not mentioned. there was one other thing as well, but I can't remember it right now...too much alcohol, not enough sleep and a long drive home have turned my brain into mush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybroleach Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Thanks for the reports. I didn't find anyone commenting on this, but any confirmations/guesses on the "dark sorcery" which burns the eagle flying over the Wall (then Varaymr)? Is it because of the Wall and the magic inherent in the Wall? It was Mel who set his eagle on fire. Anyways these new reports have me really confused on the new ending. Does this mean that thistle hadn't deserted him in the cabin? And their just hanging out when he tries warging her, then she goes crazy running away. Then later returns as a white and he wargs into his wolf who is now with him. ?? That's how i think you're trying to say it but i'm probably way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barba Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 It sounds to me that Thistle was with him, and she didn't go for help as before, but he tried to mount her, so she run away. But, IIRC, Thistle left him couple of days ago, so is this another flashback, or did george change it to make Thistle leave him, become Wright and get back in the same day. It is also nice info about when you try to change skin with human, they go crazy. Maybe that is why Hodor is crazy. Bran changing skin with him sounded pretty easy to do from Bran's chapter. Maybe it's because someone did it before. Varamyr said that once someone was broken anyone could take him. Maybe it is why it was so easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Pierre Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Thistle still goes for help-and when she returns is when Varamyr tries to enter her and she goes nutso screaming 'GET OUT, GET OUT'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barba Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 So, when does she become wright? Are Others just behind her, and kill them both few minutes after he wargs his wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Barba, Varimyr is sitting in the hut wounded reminising on his life and randomly calling for Thistle when it starts getting very cold she rushed into the hut and tries to get Varimyr to run with her. That's when he attempts to warg into her. She goes mad pushes him out and he ends up in a wolf. Then he sees Thistles and his wightified bodies approching him as a wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lany Freelove Cassandra Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Scot, you took notes, was there one other change GRRM made? He moved the trying to warg the woman to the end, changed the ending, left out the wolf seeing the army of "whites" and I thought there was one more thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihil Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 As I recall it, Varamyr has wandered out of the hut he was in, looking for Thistle, flashing back all over the place as he goes. He eventually collapses in the snow near a weirwood, convinced that Thistle has left him. All this time he's been thinking about "taking her" and "forcing her" and it gradually dawns on you over the course of the chapter what he means by that (well, unless you read the spoilers in which case you already know). She comes running up saying something along the lines of, "We've got to run, they're coming, they're right behind me." So basically she's being all self-sacrificing, trying to lift him up, and he repays her by trying to warg into her, which of course leads to the screaming, eyes-clawing, and (don't think this was mentioned yet) tongue-biting-off-and-spitting-out. He fails to warg into her, but his body dies (not sure we have a cause of death, whether it was from his earlier injuries/exposure/starvation or whether the wights caught up to them) and so he speeds off into One-Eye. The pack makes its way back to the place where Varamyr dies and they see Thistle and Varamyr's corpses, staring at them. I thought I remembered hearing about there being more wights, but maybe that got jumbled in my head somehow. GRRM did make some notes as he was reading the chapter, but I didn't really notice anything being jarring or hard to understand, so I guess the prologue is getting much closer to where it needs to be. Another interesting thing from the con, at one point in a panel GRRM was commenting that he didn't like how in a lot of fantasy stories various races are all defined by a single personality (i.e. all orcs are evil, all elves are wise, etc), whereas it would be more realistic for various individuals within a race to have different personalities, viewpoints, etc. Some quick-witted audience member asked him how that idea applied to the Others in his own books, to which he replied, "I'm not gonna answer that." Food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjen Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Another interesting thing from the con, at one point in a panel GRRM was commenting that he didn't like how in a lot of fantasy stories various races are all defined by a single personality (i.e. all orcs are evil, all elves are wise, etc), whereas it would be more realistic for various individuals within a race to have different personalities, viewpoints, etc. Some quick-witted audience member asked him how that idea applied to the Others in his own books, to which he replied, "I'm not gonna answer that." Food for thought. That is interesting. I asked GRRM a long time ago about the relationship between the Others and the Children of the Forest, and he wouldn't comment on that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Nihil, Some quick-witted audience member asked him how that idea applied to the Others in his own books, to which he replied, "I'm not gonna answer that." Food for thought. That was me. I think the implication of that statement is that the "Others" aren't a monolithic evil that they have their own motivations that we haven't seen yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angalin Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Nice one, Scott. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barba Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 That might be who Coldhands is. Other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Nihil, That was me. I think the implication of that statement is that the "Others" aren't a monolithic evil that they have their own motivations that we haven't seen yet. That's what I've been saying all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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