Harry Potter 7 (aka Potterclypse)

[Spring Bass]

Sorta. But not quite. What I'm saying is something that is not going to be refuted by saying "Oh but look at this Slytherin who isn't a bad guy" as my concern wasn't in a matter of writing being two-dimensional, but rather the idea of Slytherin being a decent set of values (one stated in the books) without any substance to it.

Oh, so you're actually questioning whether or not Slytherin is actually shown as a decent set of values, not that Slytherins are characterized as "bad". I simply thought it would be obvious that ambition and cunning, are not, in of themselves, bad. They actually tend to be more value-neutral; you can be a good person and be ambitious.

[Not another Stark]

And Rowling is a better writer than Martin. (She can actually finish a book) Asoiaf, for all its excellent qualities, will not be much more remembered than Shannhara or Goodkind, but HP will go down with LOTR, Austen, and Twain as the finest and most memorable and enduring literature of it's particular age.

Calling HP children's literature would be like calling Twain or Austen children's literature. JKR is above showing rape, torture, and sex crudely, she's deals with them in the classic, and much more sophisticated manner. That's not childish, its refreshing.

HP will go down as mediocre literature, 20 years from now at best.

There were times where kids actually read Homer, you know, Iliad, where people get graphically killed.

GRRM, we can't be sure he'll be remembered as brilliant in a few decades, but even if half-forgotten, no one with a decent level of literary criticism will ever be able to think it's as bad as Brooks or Goodkind - or even Rowling.

Frankly, this ending is just as cheesy, campy, contrived and "let's play safe, don't do anything unexpected or bold" it is on par with the Matrix sequels or the SW prequels.

[Ecchi-Oni]

The only author that can try to make Rowling look good is the one the only the Yeard. HP is mediocre, boring, children book that grew out of proportions. If you want a more or less realistic portrayal of what magic users/mundanes co-existence would look like in modern world read the Night Watch series. The wizards in HP are imbeciles.

[Bellis]

Eh... after my initial shock... i'm coming around. Apart from the cornyness of aspects of the last few chapters, and some character inconsistencies, I have to admit that taken as a whole, the series is quite good. Possibly the best completed young adult series I've read and among the best completed series out there.

That being said, there is no comparison to Martin. A single POV bildungsroman with a obvious, clearly stated mythical hero's journey vs. a multi-POV epic with no true heroes or villians. Apples and oranges.

I will say that IMHO Martin's writing is stronger - much tighter plotting, more well-developed characters and better dialogue.

Of course, we really should reserve judgment until after ASOIAF is completed (2020 at this rate).

I have to admit though, that reading DH has got me quite worried about the end of ASOIAF. If I was disappointed in the predictability of Harrycrux Christ-death and S+L=good!Snape, I should be prepared to be devastated to learn that things really are as simple as R+L=J and Jon and Tyrion ruling jointly in the end with benevolent queen Dany and her three friendly dragons. Really, I feel I must have faith that Martin will be able to pull this off in a non-cringeworthy and believable manner. But, he has a lot of pressure on him now. Good luck.

[theMountainGoat]

So just finished and thought I would jump into the discussions.

The first half of the book was really strong, but it did lose coherance towards the end and I felt the ending was too quick, not enough resolution in the aftermath. There was too many important details that just came out of nowhere and a not short list of things that were never explained or were completely mishandled.

1. How exactly did Neville get his hands on the Gryfindor Sword he used to kill the snake? I thought this was previously last seen in the hands of Griphook the Goblin who would never let it out of his sight again?

2. The whole Ron memorising what Harry said to open the locket horcrux and then used it to get into the chamber of secrets - WTF? Ron, and lets be fair to him ain't the sharpest wand in the shop, are we expected to believe that he memorised something that was said when Ron was feeling a bit emotional upon his return having just saved his friend from drowning, and then several months later, after many narrow escapes with death and no hint that he had been practicing the words was able to speak Parseltongue perfectly? Erm, yeah ok

3. I wonder how much the ending of the series changed because of the sheer popularity of the whole franchise. The stories about how Childline is braced for calls from sad children upset at the death of whichever favourite character may have been killed might have made JK rethink. The guilt and blame she might feel if she had the guts to kill one of her major characters (Harry, Ron or Hermonie) may have been a factor in making the end so cheesy and happy and a relatively low death count considering. Most of the deaths occured off screen (Mad Eye, Tonks, Lupin). I was not so sad to see Fred go really and many other killed characters were so minor as to be almost unnoticed. The only one that really got a response from me was Dobby, I thought that scene actually held some meaning with Dobby declaring to his former mistress that he was a free Elf who made his own choices.

4. I did not really need a tour of remembrance from the previous six books.

5. Voldemorts' stupidity regarding the Room of Requirement and thinking the locket magic could not be circumvented so easily and letting all his enemies walk around freely when he apparantely held almost the entire Wizarding World in his power . . .

But I could go on and on about how stupid and lame many parts of this book were and how flawed the writing and plot turned out. But I think you do have to remember that this is a book primarily intended for Children/Teenagers and despite the flaws there is a big kid inside of me that absolutely loved it

[Minaku]

1. How exactly did Neville get his hands on the Gryfindor Sword he used to kill the snake? I thought this was previously last seen in the hands of Griphook the Goblin who would never let it out of his sight again?

Ah, Neville had the Sorting Hat on, and remember that the Sorting Hat can call items at need, especially Gryffindor ones.

[Guarneri]

Ah, Neville had the Sorting Hat on, and remember that the Sorting Hat can call items at need, especially Gryffindor ones.

In other words: convenient deus ex machina.

[theMountainGoat]

So there should be one mighty pissed off Goblin out there looking for Potter and muttering about Wizards not keeping their promises . . .

Also, did anybody notice Hereward make an appearance in the book? It was used as a name of a place or a family name (sorry tired now and cannot find the page no or remember exactly) but it was definitely in there and made me

Erm, unless our esteemed boarder Hereward took his name from Harry Potter of course

[CryHavoc]

In other words: convenient deus ex machina.

Well, this particular deus ex machina was established back in book two.

Ack, beat to it. I type far too slowly.

[Arataniello]

Just finished it, and read the thoughts here, which more or less are what I was thinking (not that that is going to stop me posting).

The good

- Neville! Rocks!

- Mrs Weasley gets to finally go apeshit in defence of her family;

- the Chapter 'The Prince's Tale' explained a lot and did it rather well. Shame we did not get a scene of Harry with Snape, but we did get to hear Harry say that Severus was the bravest man he had ever known (I think, its late).

- McGonagall in defense of Hogwarts, pretty awesome.

- I think I may have mentioned in a much earlier thread that the coevr art on the UK version may have been set in Gringotts Bank. It was suggested that this couldn't _possibly_ be the case. Wheeee - go me!

The bad

- JK has a hard time doing emotion. Harry is very shouty all the time for the first half of the book. His final chat with Voldy though was pretty good - I was reminded of Lord Foul and Thomas Covenant in the climax of the First Chronicles.

- Scorpius Malfoy? WTF?

- the epilogue was so saccharine-sweet that three of my teeth now need fillings.

- convenient Bannockburn-esque appearance of a second army of centaurs and house-elves that scared off the Death Eaters, in fact in general the whole of the battle of Hogwarts was a bit muddled.

Deaths

- Hedwig - I guess had to be disposed of, because otherwise she would have had to be carted around by Harry, or used by Voldy to find Harry somehow in hiding.

- Mad-Eye Moody. Shame, he was a good character in a one-dimensional, one-eyed sort of way;

- Scrimgeour. Meh. Although I liked the line 'The Ministry has fallen. They are coming.' (or whatever it was - did I mention it was late?)

- Dobby. Possibly the most emotional part of the book (or maybe that was when HP makes his appearance in Hogwarts with Neville).

- Fred. As someone predicted, one of the twins would die.

- Lupin and Tonks. Pity, I liked Lupin (at least as played by David Thelwis in the movies).

- Colin Creavy "and about fifty others", including Crabbe. At least JK did not waver from having some students bite it in the battle.

Biggest teensiest elephant-sized plothole I felt was that Harry was the rightful master of the Evil Death Stick Wand of Deat - because Malfoy had overpowered Dumbledore, but Harry had stolen Malfoy's other wand??? Did I mention it was late, but even so!

Aratan

[mcbigski]

1. How exactly did Neville get his hands on the Gryfindor Sword he used to kill the snake? I thought this was previously last seen in the hands of Griphook the Goblin who would never let it out of his sight again?

Perhaps Neville does have as much of a claim to be Gryffindor's heir as Harry does. After all, most of Harry's power appears to come from the fact that he was the last surving heir to the Hallows. That's what gave him the cloak and allowed him to cheat Death in the end. Apparently, we can take Neville's pulling of the sword from the hat to mean that the goblin ideas of property aren't actually upheld in the real world, and Gryffindor's heirs are entitled to his sword.

I have to admit though, that reading DH has got me quite worried about the end of ASOIAF. If I was disappointed in the predictability of Harrycrux Christ-death and S+L=good!Snape, I should be prepared to be devastated to learn that things really are as simple as R+L=J and Jon and Tyrion ruling jointly in the end with benevolent queen Dany and her three friendly dragons. Really, I feel I must have faith that Martin will be able to pull this off in a non-cringeworthy and believable manner. But, he has a lot of pressure on him now. Good luck.

The major problem I had with DH was, oddly, that it answered almost every open question and raised none of its own. I also thought how that same scenario might play out at the end of ASoIaF, and it kind of makes think that the final volume will also be a disappointment. On the plus side, it may take GRRM much less time to write the final volume, once he can just spill the secrets of his world instead of couching them in ambiguous or overlookable fashion.

-Draco is the true owner of the Super Wand? Say what? I had no clue what was going on in that section. So very convoluted.

I don't think we were expected to figure out what was happening there until it was told explicitly. In summary, Snape never bested Dumbledore, since they were in cahoots. The wand chose Malfoy for some reason, (it's probably somewhere in HBP's ending, but you couldn't know the significance at the time) but since Ollivander didn't tell us enough about wandlore until the final several chapters, we weren't meant to be able to puzzle it all out. It does seem a little cheap of JKR to keep us from guessing what would happen by keeping us in the dark as to her magical system, but the surprise might be a lesser evil than making things to predictable, so I can forgive her.

[Tediz]

Heh, the sword bit gets more amusing the more I think of it.

Griphook: i gots me a new sword w00t

Sorting hat: no u dont lol

Neville: hahaha its mine now n00b

Griphook: wtf h4x

Anyway, I loved the first 2/3 or 3/4 of the book, with the exception of Chapter 23, due to the utter incompetence of the Death Eaters and the Dobby ex machina. The Gringotts break-in was my favorite chapter in the series. The last few chapters... not so much. I thought 33 and 35 were lame copouts that could have been done much better. As other people have said, the epilogue was horrid. Everything from Fred's death on seemed incredibly rushed. As a lover of GRRM, I was quite annoyed by the lack of details, details, details.

Also, a possible plothole: If the invisibility cloak is so infallible, why was a map created by four troublemaking kids able to detect anyone under it? Why was Mad-Eye able to see through it? And since Mad-Eye's eye was able to see through it, why didn't every alarm in the ministry go off once Harry got in view of Umbridge's office? Very sloppy, JKR.

Overall rating: A generous 6.5/10.

[Guarneri]

Hmm, so, I read like 2 pages earlier today, and already didn't want to touch any more of it. Did she pull a Jordan and just give the finger to her editors, or? Seriously, if I was her editor nearly every sentence and word would have been raped by a highlighter.

I finished the book ten minutes ago and my eyes are burning from chronic Bad Prose Disease.

Never read Harry Potter in the midst of a SoIF re-read.

[Ecchi-Oni]

Compared to Rowling Jordan is the greatest writer who ever lived. Face it pottertards THE BITCH CAN'T WRITE. The whole Potter craze was orchestrated by the media to once again prove yeardly's point that people are fucking stupid. Can't believe people who are older than 12 bought those books. Safe to say i got all my pedo potter books bootlegged.

[Guarneri]

Compared to Rowling Jordan is the greatest writer who ever lived. Face it pottertards THE BITCH CAN'T WRITE. The whole Potter craze was orchestrated by the media to once again prove yeardly's point that people are fucking stupid. Can't believe people who are older than 12 bought those books. Safe to say i got all my pedo potter books bootlegged.

Amen to this.

But I have to say the books do have some merit. I know they've gotten some kids into literature, which is great. They can be enjoyable in an effortless and thoughtless way, and appeal to the simple kid in people.

It's great that HP provides people with enjoyment. Just don't try and say that JKR is a talented writer, when the whole series is popular due to mass hype and media, not due to skill.

[The Wolf Maid]

Check out this article I found...assuming its true its pretty crazy.

...Eh. It seems he's the only one reporting this, I can't find it in the news media here. :/

[Ecchi-Oni]

LOL looks like we have a winner for Darwin award this year. Given the fact that she was only 12 we know she didn't procreate.

[BrainFireBob]

I liked it.

Parts I found weak: The Deus ex machina Hallows, Kreacher's incredibly fast turnaround, Harry's immunity to death.

Parts I liked: Dumbledore was a man afraid of power, because he actually thought he was better than other people deep down and didn't trust himself not to act on that.

Harry, like Seoman Snowlock, wins because he's a good person, and off of no other particularly special power.

Molly Weasley ne Prewett showing she's the equal of her brothers, Fabian and Gideon, even if a dowdy middle-aged "housewitch."

Kreacher's insanity being a side effect of being *unable* to follow an order.

Additional note on the Slughorn debate: Slughorn went out networking, recruiting the families of students for the cavalry charge at the end. Who else would have known who was connected to whom?

I agree that the main theme of Harry Potter is the love of parents for children. Notice that the most rabid Death Eaters were childless, like Bellatrix?

I'm looking forward to the battle scene in the movie, too- hopefully they'll get the actors cast correctly, for the reinforcements being middle-aged parents, grandparents, and siblings, charging in guns blazing to save their loved ones. People who were too afraid to fight for themselves. I don't know, there's something noble in the idea.

[Arakasi]

Martin just doesn't have the widespread popularity to have long term notoriety like Rowling or Tolkien. Sure he's doing very well, but I still run into so many fantasy fans who've not read him. That's not even getting into the idea that he probably won't finish the series, not at the rate he is going. Or the slip in quality as well.

I enjoyed this last HP book. I agree the first half was stronger than the last and that it was corny. But overall it was a pretty strong book and I enjoyed it a lot. Not nearly the amount of deaths I was expecting though.

[penandink]

Here's my big question:

Is Voldemort freakin' retarded? If there's a piece of his soul sitting in Harry Potter, shouldn't he be a little more interested in keeping the kid locked in his basement than in killing him and destroying his own soul?