the Dany hate thread

[Tycho]

Yes, maybe Barristan will, but even he doesn't know the full psychoness of Aerys. Only Jaime and Brienne know.

not to side track the dany hate, but i assume you are referring to the murder of Brandon and Rickon Stark by mad mad crazy Aerys. but i don't think that Jaime and Brienne are the only two who know about that. where is there any indication that he did it in closed chambers? presumably Ethan Glover would have known as he was the only northman released, and though he was killed at the tower of joy he would have told Eddard, ok he's dead too, but Howland Reed probably knows as well, and any goldcloaks who were in the room... i just think it's pushing it to say only Jaime and Brienne know.

ETA: Also as i was doing some looking about for my defense of Theon, King Robert knew as well and uses those murders to justify in his mind for the murders of Rhaenys, Aegon, and Elia. meaning that a whole bunch of people probably know about it. of course if you were talking about some other aspect of the psychoness then i sure feel sheepish for going in to this so much

[Daemrion]

not to side track the dany hate, but i assume you are referring to the murder of Brandon and Rickon Stark by mad mad crazy Aerys. but i don't think that Jaime and Brienne are the only two who know about that. where is there any indication that he did it in closed chambers? presumably Ethan Glover would have known as he was the only northman released, and though he was killed at the tower of joy he would have told Eddard, ok he's dead too, but Howland Reed probably knows as well, and any goldcloaks who were in the room... i just think it's pushing it to say only Jaime and Brienne know.

I meant Operation Genocide Kings Landing. (AKA the Wildfire Plot, "Let him be King over charred bones and ashes"), of which only the now dead pyromancers (Rossart, Garigus, Belis), the now dead King Nutjob, and Jaime knew of. Then Jaime told Brienne in the Harrenhal bath scene.

I have a very hard time understanding the Dany-hate. She's basically Arya (who's great) with more compassion and leadership, right?

No. Arya's father did not deserve to die. Dany's should have been hung, drawn and quartered after long amounts of torture. 'Nuff said.

But Dany rises above her situation, finds her "inner leader", and sets out to do nothing less than change the world -- to make it better for common people.

All the while garnering power to herself.

And BTW... DANY'S THE RIGHTFUL HEIR! (Based on what we know.)

Dany got disinherited. Her father was sort of batty...and her brother was sort of a kidnapper too

With the benefit of reading her thoughts, we see that she's as self-aware and wanting to improve as a person and a ruler as anyone else in the series -- more, arguably. In our last look at her, in ASoS, she's once again making a self-disciplined, selfless decision to put the needs of the people before her own desires. She wants to do good. She does a lot of good. What more do people want? Does her name need to be Stark?

It's called self-delusion.

She constantly tells herself Aerys was good, when we as the reader all know that he was a nutjob who needed to die. Thus, she based all her emotional life on a falsehood. Her whole 'My vengeance is rightful' is really based on a big fat self deluding lie. And the fact that this lie carries on through the whole of her POV is infuriating.

I wish someone would just scream, "get over it, girl, your father was a bad man. Evil. Selfish. Genocidal. Wake up and smell the roses."

And to actually be a normal human being which one can empathise with.

LOL

[Tycho]

I meant Operation Genocide Kings Landing. (AKA the Wildfire Plot, "Let him be King over charred bones and ashes"), of which only the now dead pyromancers (Rossart, Garigus, Belis), the now dead King Nutjob, and Jaime knew of. Then Jaime told Brienne in the Harrenhal bath scene.

point well taken. though for what it's worth Varys probably knows too, not that he'd of told anyone, esp. because the aptly dubbed King Nutjob wound up dead before anything happened.

[A wilding]

She constantly tells herself Aerys was good, when we as the reader all know that he was a nutjob who needed to die. Thus, she based all her emotional life on a falsehood. Her whole 'My vengeance is rightful' is really based on a big fat self deluding lie. And the fact that this lie carries on through the whole of her POV is infuriating.

I wish someone would just scream, "get over it, girl, your father was a bad man. Evil. Selfish. Genocidal. Wake up and smell the roses."

I don't remember her expressing an opinion on how good Aerys was particularly. She is also remarkably open to Ser Barristan telling her he wasn't, and about the Targaryen taint generally. It is scarcely her fault she does not know the full truth about Aerys so "self deluding" is not exactly fair.

Her claim to the Iron Throne is at least as good as anyone else's is, with the associated right to return her family to power, and I don't recall anyone saying that they hate any of the other claimants because they did not just turn their back on their claim.

[L'Sana]

Hmm... Dany’s mother died birthing her, her brother was killed in war, her father and the rest of her family raped and murdered. She was raised in exile with an lunatic abusive brother deprived of the family’s fortune, living in constant fear of assassins.

Yep. I know all that intellectually. But I didn't go through it with her, the way I went through Arya's capture by the Mountain and being forced to watch the tickler at work, or Sansa being stripped naked and beaten bloody in front of the court. So any empathy I have is on an intellectual rather than emotional level.

Sold too a barbarian warlord at the age of thirteen,

Who ended up being a very good husband to her.

that tortured her last brother to death,

Said brother had been threatening to kill her at the time. She didn't seem all that broken up about it.

having her husband turned into a vegetable, and put him out of his misery and had her son turned into a putrid husk in her womb by witchcraft.

All of which got her dragons and ultimately her shot at the Iron Throne.

Notice the casualness which she impale, burn, or shred people behind her horse. She almost never seems troubled by it and she is a teenager.

I have noticed. That's why I am very worried about her ever taking the Iron Throne.

And BTW... DANY'S THE RIGHTFUL HEIR! (Based on what we know.)

I don't think so. There has never been a Targaryen who was a ruling queen, in spite of several situations where the daughters would have inherited had it been any other family in Westeros. It seems to me that there are two legal arguments here:

1. The Targaryen dynasty ended with Robert's Rebellion and the Baratheon dynasty began. Therefore, Stannis is the rightful King.

2. The Targaryen dynasty still continues, so the male Targaryen most closely related to Aerys is the rightful King. This would be Aerys's surviving sons or grandsons, but he doesn't have any; Aerys's brothers and their children, but we have never seen any evidence that he had any siblings other than Rhaelle; Aerys's first cousins and their children, leading us back to Stannis.

Of course, actual dragons as opposed to Targaryens probably have their own opinions on what "rightful" means and these are likely to count for more in the end...

[CelticBrennus]

My problem with Dany is that she doesn't seem to yet understand what a fragile concept 'justice' is. These are her early days as a ruler. If she survives, she could be a lot more similar to her father, or Joff, or Robert, or any rotten ruler. Being king should be about justice, but it isn't really. And she has yet to learn that.

The thing that really got to me is this. At a lot of times she does seem like Mary Sue and her Three Flying Plot Devices. I mean, she gets a lot of credit for being smart, or being a clever general, etc…for things that don’t really seem that impressive to me. Ok, she cheated and lied to a bunch of idiots to get one of the premier fighting forces around then had their families butchered and women raped(Astapor – what do you think happens when a city is sacked during a slave revolt?). Ok, she again cheated and lied to defeat her first military challenge (Yunkai), and has plot devices fall down around her to save her sorry butt at Mereen (Brown Ben and the sewers).

Then she crucifies 163 leading citizens because someone in the city had decided to crucify the children. Its not Justice she does, its raw and bloody vengeance. She has not ever really dispensed what we can call Justice. She dispenses vengeance and doesn’t really seemed concerned that there is a difference. It just doesn’t sit right with me.

[Demonic Weasel]

That's true enough, but Dany tells herself that it's about justice. When it's not. And about the people claiming that Dany is the rightful ruler of Westeros; she is not. Stannis is king. He's the rightful closest male heir to the Targaryen dynasty and the Baratheon dynasty. Whine about it if you want to, but that's the way Westeros works.

[gizermaot]

If the last Targayren heir had been smart, decisive, and handsome and male I think there would be far less threads about his arrogance.

This has nothing to do with her gender. my problem with her is the lack of complexity you find in other POV characters. Dany is just a typical heroine from typical fantasy, and imo has no place in GRRM's wonderful and complex series. Of course, i can be very wrong and GRRM may yet decide to give her an excruciating death like she deserves, but if she ends on the iron throne i'll be very disappointed...

and Dany's dragons must die as well, or devour her.

[Greyjoy Rebellion]

Ok, she cheated and lied to a bunch of idiots to get one of the premier fighting forces around then had their families butchered and women raped(Astapor – what do you think happens when a city is sacked during a slave revolt?).

The Unsullied did exactly as they were ordered, unless you don't trust Martin's description of them:

"Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see."

Also, the Unsullied were Eunuchs. Which ones of them grew their genitalia back and starting raping? Other than the Unsullied, there were 83 in her party, and most of those were women and children themselves. Do you really think that she was going to let the 20 or 30 male dothraki rape and pillage the innocents? Of course not. She had already commanded them not to before.

[Lord O' Bones]

Which ones of them grew their genitalia back and starting raping?

You know those slaves with their chains recently struck off? They did the raping. FFS.

[Greyjoy Rebellion]

You know those slaves with their chains recently struck off? They did the raping. FFS.

And you know that

a) those slaves aren't eunuchs

dany allowed them to rape and pillage

c) they raped and pillaged anyway even if she didn't allow it?

what else are we supposed to assume along the way in this series? I'm sure I can suppose a few things about Sansa or Tyrion or anyone else that can make them seem more damnable as well..

[Lord O' Bones]

And you know that

a) those slaves aren't eunuchs

dany allowed them to rape and pillage

c) they raped and pillaged anyway even if she didn't allow it?

what else are we supposed to assume along the way in this series? I'm sure I can suppose a few things about Sansa or Tyrion or anyone else that can make them seem more damnable as well..

Willfull ignorance is annoying. Did the rapine not occur then? Otherwise who did it?

a) Do you know that they were eunuchs?

If the raping and pillaging happened (and it did) she's certainly complicit.

c) Apparently so. Though I don't imagine she had an opportunity to allow or disallow anything the freed slaves did as she never addressed them directly as she did her Unsullied.

[Enguerrand]

But I didn't go through it with her, the way I went through Arya's capture by the Mountain and being forced to watch the tickler at work, or Sansa being stripped naked and beaten bloody in front of the court. So any empathy I have is on an intellectual rather than emotional level.

Still you claimed that Dany had an easy life, which is just ridiculous. I think Sansa would much preferred to being stripped and beaten then being married to Mongolian savage and having intercourse in front of a hundred thousand people.I think that the fact that Dany refuses to be a victim is what makes her trials seems less pitiful.

Who ended up being a very good husband to her.

You make it sounds like it was mere happenstance, Dany endeavoured to embrace dothraki customs in all it’s forms, to please Drogo sexually, to become his confidant. How many westerosi ladies to you think can eat a horseheart raw? Drogo hardly became the leader of the greatest khalasaar in history by lack of perception. He understand that what she does takes guts and gives her recognition.

Said brother had been threatening to kill her at the time. She didn't seem all that broken up about it.

She seldom does. IMO because she has a great intimacy with fear and brutality. But it's very clear that she had tender feelings about Viserys and that she strove to make his dreams come through, and he was all family she ever had.

All of which got her dragons and ultimately her shot at the Iron Throne.

I see a complete disconnect here. Why is one thing dependent upon another? Had Drogo been alive she still would have a shot at the iron throne(arguable a better one then she has now), I can’t see why she couldn’t have had both the dragon’s and her son.

I don't think so. There has never been a Targaryen who was a ruling queen, in spite of several situations where the daughters would have inherited had it been any other family in Westeros.

Could you elaborate? Rhaenyra was Aegon’s older half-sister and her father’s designated heir. But the Andals practiced male-preference primogeniture, hence those who supported her brother. Daeron’s daughter were passed over because she was a mentally handicapped. I know of no other cases.

The thing that really got to me is this. At a lot of times she does seem like Mary Sue and her Three Flying Plot Devices. I mean, she gets a lot of credit for being smart, or being a clever general, etc…for things that don’t really seem that impressive to me.

That is what I use to think about Rob, so his WOLF found a secret pass, so they could fall upon the enemy from behind, And his mom got him over the Twins. And somehow he is a tactical genius. A protagonist must succeed otherwise it doesn't become much of a story. The farfetched twists that Martin takes to keep Jon alive shows that he is aiming for fantasy not historic realism.

She has not ever really dispensed what we can call Justice. She dispenses vengeance and doesn’t really seemed concerned that there is a difference. It just doesn’t sit right with me.

An eye for an eye might not be your or mine preffered legal system but it has certainly been considered justice in many time and cultures.

This has nothing to do with her gender. my problem with her is the lack of complexity you find in other POV characters. Dany is just a typical heroine from typical fantasy, and imo has no place in GRRM's wonderful and complex series.

No I think much of the dislike comes from that women aren't supposed to feel entitled to power. In what other fantasy novel do you find Dany’s equivalent?

[Greyjoy Rebellion]

Willfull ignorance is annoying. Did the rapine not occur then? Otherwise who did it?

a) Do you know that they were eunuchs?

If the raping and pillaging happened (and it did) she's certainly complicit.

c) Apparently so. Though I don't imagine she had an opportunity to allow or disallow anything the freed slaves did as she never addressed them directly as she did her Unsullied.

I'm not a very good reader at times, so I might have missed something. Did a passage specifically allude to rapings during the battle of Astapor?

[Lord O' Bones]

I'm not a very good reader at times, so I might have missed something. Did a passage specifically allude to rapings during the battle of Astapor?

We're in the same boat then. I was honestly asking you if it did or did not because I don't remember. So at this point I'm assuming CeltiBrennus does remember and going with that for now.

Can anyone help us out here?

[CelticBrennus]

We're in the same boat then. I was honestly asking you if it did or did not because I don't remember. So at this point I'm assuming CeltiBrennus does remember and going with that for now.

Oh, I am just thinking about things like what Cercei said to Sansa as KL was going to fall.

People are the same everywhere, and when the cities order collapsed, it is virtually certain that the slaves engaged in violent reprisals against their former masters, likely far more then soldiers with no such deepseated hatred.

[Crazydog7]

Maybe its the fact that I don't have a problem with Dany so much as I have a problem with Mary Sues' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Jon also has alot of this problem.

I just hope to god almighty that the two of them don't end the serise married to one another.

[Greyjoy Rebellion]

Oh, I am just thinking about things like what Cercei said to Sansa as KL was going to fall.

People are the same everywhere, and when the cities order collapsed, it is virtually certain that the slaves engaged in violent reprisals against their former masters, likely far more then soldiers with no such deepseated hatred.

See, I don't think this is the case. Dothraki are rapers and pillagers. Some knights are rapers and pillagers. With the slave cities, we don't really have a glimpse of the population makeup of Astapor, what kind of slaves there are, etc.

This is another problem with Dany's chapters: too much information constantly needs to be filled in with our imaginations, because again, there's no cross-referencing from the other story arcs. In Qarth and Astapor I constantly feel as though I'm grasping at straws trying to imagine the scenery, let alone some of these mysterious characters.

Dany is probably the least well-known of all the major characters, again because we have no third-person perspective on her. With Sansa, we have a third person perspective on every other major character at different times: her mother, Joff, Cersei, Tyrion, eventually Littlefinger and Lysa. With Dany no one else has that perspective.

[Daemrion]

I see a complete disconnect here. Why is one thing dependent upon another? Had Drogo been alive she still would have a shot at the iron throne(arguable a better one then she has now), I can’t see why she couldn’t have had both the dragon’s and her son.

It's not really about dependent. It's about the plot devices.

The sacrifice that was required. Were you paying attention - UnDrogo, MMD and dead son for three dragons.

[Enguerrand]

The sacrifice that was required. Were you paying attention - UnDrogo, MMD and dead son for three dragons.

Yes, but why did it have to be her husband and son?