Is Jordan really that bad?

[ser jon stark]

I mean he has gone way down hill for sure but is he really that bad of a writter now?

will anyone bother reading Memory of Light or whatever it's called?

and when did it start going down hill to you?

[Martin Silenus]

After the sixth book. I think that's the general consensus. That tome could double as a doorstop/blunt weapon -- it's huge -- but the plot was still advancing at a decent clip. From Book 7 through 10, I began to notice (1) larger type, less pages; (2) more self-parody (braids a-tugging); (3) poor editing, more typos; (4) the plot going nowhere (Book 10); (5) promising players and premises forgotten; (6) generally, everything got worse. The writing got worse.

So is it a cause of publisher, fan, or self-inflicted pressure? It's apparent his illness is bringing his skill down. It happened to Mervyn Peake. I thought Book 11 was decent enough, though. Yeah, I'll buy Book 12... when it's remaindered to $6.99 or less.

[Shryke]

I don't think so. But that's not a popular opinion round here. I think the story just got so big he wasn't able to move it that far forward with each volume. Too many threads.

[BrainFireBob]

And attendent backlash. There's a lot of bitterness now, too, as if Jordan owed his readership compromising what he wanted to achieve and how he wanted to achieve it.

[Shryke]

You can see the same thing with ASOIAF. Internet folks are bitchy people. "OMG, DWD is taking too long. GRRM's writing is going down the shitter.".

[Bittersteel+]

You can see the same thing with ASOIAF. Internet folks are bitchy people. "OMG, DWD is taking too long. GRRM's writing is going down the shitter."

it's not the same. I've been trough 9 books of Jordan. He's getting really boring, his heroes are unrealistic, that's the main problem... I couldn't follow all the new threads not because I was not able to, but only because I didn't really like it...

[Shryke]

it's not the same. I've been trough 9 books of Jordan. He's getting really boring, his heroes are unrealistic, that's the main problem... I couldn't follow all the new threads not because I was not able to, but only because I didn't really like it...

Oh, I'll fully admit it's not as good as it used to be. I think there's quite a few parts that are much slower then they should be and full of way too many descriptions.

But there's a distinct feeling among many of the internet peoples that their owed something. Look at the HP threads on the last book and you'll see that same thing.

[Bittersteel+]

Oh, I'll fully admit it's not as good as it used to be. I think there's quite a few parts that are much slower then they should be and full of way too many descriptions.

But there's a distinct feeling among many of the internet peoples that their owed something. Look at the HP threads on the last book and you'll see that same thing.

Yes, I've seen many posts like "Why is it taking so long?" but actually only few like "GRRM's writing is going worse" And even they actually have problems with to two kinds of POVs - Ironborn + Brienne, not with the book at whole.

[Gerold Hightower]

I mean he has gone way down hill for sure but is he really that bad of a writter now?

will anyone bother reading Memory of Light or whatever it's called?

and when did it start going down hill to you?

I'm not sure if he is as bad a writer as his more recent books. Maybe he just didn't try very hard. As long as people were still buying them he had little incentive. He has definitely spread the story over too many books though. A popular theory says he did so because his publisher wanted more books and Jordan the money they offered). It would certainly explain why the later books are so weak. But of course Jordan was overrated to begin with and the bashing he got later was just the backlash.

Of course everybody will read the last book because they want to know how the story ends. I don't think I'll buy the hardcover, though.

[Lyanna Stark]

I predict the return of the epic "Robert Jordan is a sellout" thread.

*brings popcorn*

[BLU-RAY]

I predict the return of the epic "Robert Jordan is a sellout" thread.

*brings popcorn*

Nah, the board has, for the most part, burned itself out on that. These generally remain vaguely civil (though there's always one n00b who wasn't here for the last time who feels the need to be as vitriolic as possible).

I don't think Jordan is as bad as this board would make him out to be. He's gotten, primarily, too long-winded for his own good, and frankly, I think his editing started going downhill more than anything else. I think that the consensus worst 4 books (7-10) could have been edited into three pretty good books; not The Shadow Rising good, but maybe The Great Hunt good. I thought that's more or less what Knife of Dreams was, although it still left me feeling less satisfied than equal-quality early books because he has created so many threads, he cannot possibly address each in a meaningful way. AMoL will be long as hell, and yes, I'll buy it, but I think it'll be about 1 really good WoT book and about 1/2 mediocre-to-bad WoT book shuffled together, simply because he has so much to take care of. It's either that or suffer from an epic, epic case of unused Chekhov's guns.

[Muttering Bill]

Is Jordan a bad writer? Well, he's certainly becoming one. His books have suffered a serious lack in quality. I enjoyed his book up through 7. After that there was a steady decline, bottoming out at 10. He does seem to be on an upswing now, so I'm hoping he's back in stride for the finale. Of course, with his illness, I wonder if he may end up botching this last volume form rushing it.

But there's a distinct feeling among many of the internet peoples that their owed something. Look at the HP threads on the last book and you'll see that same thing.

If I'm paying $25 for book, then yes, I generaly tend to think that I'm owed a little quality. The story's gotten bogged down in minor plot lines. Sure, they're mostly relevant to the story overall, but that doesn't make them interesting.

I'll definately be buying AMoL. I can understand that not every book is going to be great. I can forgive him getting a little distracted, so long as it ends well. But if he screws this up, I will curse his name for eternity.

[Ser Warpechowski]

There are so many people everywhere that says his book sufered a huge drop in quality that I doubt its just a subjective opinion. Also, all the criticism towards it was the main reason why I havent readed any of the books, because even if the first ones are amazing, if the ending sucks, its worthless.

[dornish prince]

plenty has been said about books 7-10 (personally, the only one i had a problem with was 10) and i'm not about to say that jordan is a bad writer. when you've written as much as jordan has, there are gonna be some stinkers in there. i will most definitely be buying AMoL, and i'm confident that i will enjoy it. KoD was very good, IMO, although, compared to the stinker before it......

[j-lantern]

Echoing what's been said, I think they started to slip after Lord of Chaos. The next book I felt dragged but he pulled it out with a cool ending. The next books just got worse and worse, bottoming out with #10. That book was horrible, and if I ever re-read the series, I'm skipping it. I felt that Knife of Dreams was the best book since Chaos, and will pick up Memory of Light when it is released.

Crows I felt was by far the worst Martin book, and I don't have high hopes for ADWD, whenever we get it. I think that the spitting of the perspectives was just too much, too forced, and that we won't see another great one until book 6. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he feels like he has to go 8 books. 6th to pull 4&5 together, 7 to move the story to the precipice, and 8 to end it all.

[EHK for Darwin]

Martin, Jordan...neither one owe us shit. Not sure where you're getting that. But nor do we owe them a damned thing either. None of which changes the fact that Feast was a subpar book when compared to the other three and took an inordinately long time to get done. Both legitimate issues for complaint.

Jordan on the other hand has completely lost control of his story, grinding it to a snails pace and filling the pages with redundant females, indecipherable in names and characteristics. Plot points laid down in book 2 still manage to dangle and the rare moments of resolution usually have an uninspired, 'going through the motions' type of feel to them. He's neutered his villains, butchered his heroes, sapped any and all tension from any situation because you know the 'Fellowship' will always, improbably come out unscathed. Lets face it, the book hasn't had a memorable moment since 6 and that was a bloated mammoth itself. RJ knows how to fill pages. He just doesn't know how to place anything interesting or relevant on them.

Yes, he does suck. No, he's not worth reading. No, there really is no hope of recovery. The guy is George Lucas...whatever he did once have, he lost a LONG, LONG time ago.

[Black Dow]

I've never read Jordan, not even the Eye of the World. The general consensus on fantasy boards seems to be that his early books are much much better than the latter books. But, the same thing is also said of Goodkind; and, having read the first book, I cannot even begin to imagine how bad the latter books must be, if they are worse than his first.

Now, the same is often said of Martin- at least, it is said that AFFC is the worst book of the series (an assessment with which I agree, though I do expect a return to quality in this case).

So, as far as Jordan goes, is he more like Goodkind, a terrible author to begin with, who only gets worse (if getting worse is even possible, in Goodkind's case, a proposition that makes me skeptical, given the heinous quality of WFR); or more like Martin, a great author who simply overextended himself at some point in the series? Or somewhere in between?

Or, to ask another question about Jordan (similar but not exact to the first): if I like writers like Bakker and Martin and Williams, and have little use for Goodkind, Feist, and Eddings, what are the general chances that I'm going to like Jordan? Who does Jordan, in terms of writing style and quality, compare to?

[Caine]

Although he's not there yet, I'm confident GRRM will lose track of the story needing to hatch hundreds of plot threads because he somehow feels it's "necessary" to the overall story arc. AFFC was our first glimpse in the vein of Jordan's bloated epic fantasy.

[L'Sana]

If I'm paying $25 for book, then yes, I generaly tend to think that I'm owed a little quality. The story's gotten bogged down in minor plot lines. Sure, they're mostly relevant to the story overall, but that doesn't make them interesting.

Here, here! I would have to say that Jordan "owes" me $24.99 plus tax worth of entertainment. Okay, technically Jordan probably only owes me 25% of that, with his agent owing me another 15% and his publisher....anyway, the point is that I'm owed my 25 bucks worth of entertainment. Some of the books he has delivered on with that, others he has failed miserably, others I'm surprised that there isn't a mob at his house demanding refunds.

As to the question of Jordan's overall status as a writer...well, let's look at the evidence. I have not read the Conan Chronicles or any of his historical fiction, so I'm going to have to judge simply based on WoT. From my perspective, the evidence is...

1. Eye of the World, was okay. Had an excellent prologue, a few good chapters, but was mostly standard fantasy fair. Characters wander around without getting anywhere. It did get me through a very long day in airports, though, for which I'm grateful.

2. Great Hunt. Decent. Wouldn't have read it, except that I had more airplane flights and wanted to bring a book that was long enough. I was pleasantly surprised.

3. Dragon Reborn. Excellent. I think this was the best written in the series. Only three plot lines, they all tied together, and I didn't find any of them boring.

4. Shadow Rising. Excellent. This book, unlike the previous one, did have some boring plot lines, but the good things far outweighed them.

5-6. These two were very good in parts, but also very bad in parts. They had some very cool scenes, but also had places that made me wonder if what Jordan really wanted was to write for a women's fashion magazine. Still, on balance I would have said I liked them.

7-9. This was a return to about the first book I think. Some very cool scenes, but a lot of filler in between them.

10. Do we need to talk about it? Crossroads of Twilight did not exist. Jordan came up with a very nice title, then neglected to write a book to go with it.

11. Knife of Dreams read like it was written with a check list next to it. The deus ex machina was getting a serious workout going from one plot to the next to tie up loose threads that wouldn't have gotten tucked in any other way. Still, at the very least, things did resolve.

From that list, I would give him credit for 2 very good books and maybe 3 other decent books. That's not a great record, but it isn't a bad one either. There are certainly authors who don't get credit even for that. However, that list overlooks something: none of these books can be read in isolation. With, say, Agatha Christie, I could give you a list of her five or so best books and tell you to read those and ignore the others, but I don't think you can just read The Dragon Reborn or The Shadow Rising without reading what's in front of them, then reading what's behind them to get some kind of closure. Jordan can't really be evaluated based on individual books; we need to look at the whole thing.

I think a lot depends on what happens in Memory of Light. If it's good and Jordan somehow manages to pull all of his threads together into a decent ending (I don't see how that could happen, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for the moment), then he'll be at least a reasonably good writer. If not, then the Wheel of Time as a whole turns an enormously long book with a boring beginning and a miserable ending and a few nice chapters in between. That isn't enough.

[Tears of Lys]

Oh, I'll fully admit it's not as good as it used to be. I think there's quite a few parts that are much slower then they should be and full of way too many descriptions.

But there's a distinct feeling among many of the internet peoples that their owed something. Look at the HP threads on the last book and you'll see that same thing.

Just a good story. That's all.

L'Sana described my impressions to a tee. Thanks!