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Is Jordan really that bad?


ser jon stark

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So, as far as Jordan goes, is he more like Goodkind, a terrible author to begin with, who only gets worse (if getting worse is even possible, in Goodkind's case, a proposition that makes me skeptical, given the heinous quality of WFR); or more like Martin, a great author who simply overextended himself at some point in the series? Or somewhere in between?

He wasn't terrible at the beginning. The Eye of the World is beautiful. The first three books did seem magical to me. The magic began to take on the taint of saidin, but the madness didn't set in until #7 or #8. He isn't the greatest but you could do worse. And he did overextend his reach.

Or, to ask another question about Jordan (similar but not exact to the first): if I like writers like Bakker and Martin and Williams, and have little use for Goodkind, Feist, and Eddings, what are the general chances that I'm going to like Jordan? Who does Jordan, in terms of writing style and quality, compare to?

Williams? Tad Williams? There's your answer. Both are pretty good with ideas and world building and melodrama and bloat. Between the two you'd think they could afford one good editor.

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As to the question of Jordan's overall status as a writer...well, let's look at the evidence. I have not read the Conan Chronicles or any of his historical fiction, so I'm going to have to judge simply based on WoT. From my perspective, the evidence is...

As I have read those books:

Conan Chronicles - I couldn't complain. They weren't exactly good books, but I wasn't expecting them to be good. They're a few silly stories about... well, Conan! He couldn't exactly do much with that.

The Fallon Trilogy - To save space I'll address the series as a whole. Honestly, I liked them. Nothing groundbreaking of course. It's about the same that can be said as the early WoT books. Some boring sections, but over decent. Moved at a good pace - unlike the later WoT books.

WOT is very... frustrating and the above criticisms are all valid. But the fantasy genre is vast and filled with alot of books that are much, much shittier than Jordan's.

Agreed. I WANT to still like the series, but he's made it very difficult the past few years. But hey, at least he's still better than Tairy.

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No I don't think that he is that bad, it's more that he has suffered a lack of focus in his latter books. It's got me thinking of how the series could have been finished by book 10.

I wouldn't change books 1-6 all the changes need to go into the latter books. First remove all the lesser charater arcs and tie off the existing ones earlier.

Book 7 would include book 7-8

Book 8 would be 9-10 with the book 9's battle at the end of it

Book 9 would be book 11, plus finishin main plots, making peace with the Senchen, reuniting the white tower.

Book 10 tie off the rest of the plots and the final battle/conflict.

I don't think that the final book will be as good as the earlier ones, there is just to much plot to get through for just one book.

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So, as far as Jordan goes, is he more like Goodkind, a terrible author to begin with, who only gets worse (if getting worse is even possible, in Goodkind's case, a proposition that makes me skeptical, given the heinous quality of WFR); or more like Martin, a great author who simply overextended himself at some point in the series? Or somewhere in between?

Or, to ask another question about Jordan (similar but not exact to the first): if I like writers like Bakker and Martin and Williams, and have little use for Goodkind, Feist, and Eddings, what are the general chances that I'm going to like Jordan? Who does Jordan, in terms of writing style and quality, compare to?

Jordan is a much better writer than Goodkind (not that that is saying much). Goodkind actually takes a lot of Jordan's ideas and perverts them a bit (and with Goodkind, it generally really is a perversion) and uses them in his own books. (And yes, Goodkind's books do get worse and worse as he goes along, hard as that is to believe). And Jordan is nowhere nearly as good a writer as Martin. So definately in between those two extremes.

I would rank Jordan below Martin and Bakker, but above Goodkind, Fiest, and Eddings. I would also see him at about the point of Tadd Williams, or possibly some of Steven Erikson's poorer books - slow paced and padded, but usually with some decent high points. (Though Crossroads of Twilight was simply a bad book).

While Jordan really lost his way with his overall series arc at about the time the girls got themselves lost with the circus, I will give the man credit for still being able to write an occasional great individual scene.

But while he can write a great occasional scene, he just doesn't seem to be able to sustain that quality throughout a series of this length. I do not know how many authors could, though, to be fair to Jordan.

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I WANT to still like the series, but he's made it very difficult the past few years

Exactly! Being the first epic fantasy series I read, I have a really soft spot for this series, inspite of the recent.......lack of form.

I've never read Jordan, not even the Eye of the World. The general consensus on fantasy boards seems to be that his early books are much much better than the latter books. But, the same thing is also said of Goodkind; and, having read the first book, I cannot even begin to imagine how bad the latter books must be, if they are worse than his first.

No. Never. Jordan fell a bit, but he's never as bad as Goodkind.The first six books were *awesome*, the seventh was good, the eighth was good in parts(meaning the Seanchan battle scenes), the ninth was good and had an awesome ending. The tenth one was, as described elsewhere, "a black hole in literature". I'm really sorry to say that, but its true. But he made some major improvements in the 11th one, and I'm hopeful about the 12th, although I dont expect it to be anywhere near the first six.

At times, I just feel really sad thinking of what WOT could have been if he had kept it to just seven books. It would have been the best fantasy out there, beating even Martin. There are still scenes from the first few books I recall very fondly. I personally think the world building was too good in WOT, it just got out of hand later on. And Martin hasnt created anything like the Forsaken, or the Aelfinn/Eelfinn, my two favorite things from WOT( and both of them pretty much destroyed by Jordan now :cry: :cry: :cry:

Okay, I realize that was blasphemy. Go on, attack me, but I still stand by what I said. Villains like Jaime Lannister, even if they are the best fighter in the land, are still mortals. With the Forsaken, at least at first, there was something immortal about them.

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I like the world Jordan created. I even like all the characters, but there is too much bloat.

Now to be fair, a writer has to not only tell his story to the original reader, but also give the descriptives of the world and traits of the characters to a new reader. This seems boring to those who have read the other books.

The main problem is the series has taken what 20+ years to write. The Wheel of Time series simply must be read consecutively. Every time a new book comes out I read the series from Eye of the World to the new book without stopping to read anything else. Yes it takes a long time and yes it seems repetative, but the newer volumes do not tend to be as bad when read in context.

Another problem, his battles seem rushed or over edited. The first few books the villans seemed powerful and dangerous and the battles had a sense of danger. Now the vilans are recycled to an extent that it is rediculous and the battles are like flashes. I never understood why he kept vilans around if their dead?

Crossroads of Twilight could have been an aweome book if he would have wrote a full chapter with his normal descriptive style on the battle between the Windfinders and the Damae. Instead it is relegated to a few paragraphs of reflection by Mat. It almost seems as though either he or his editors adhor violence to the extent they no longer want to write about it.

I don't really think Jordan is a bad writer I think the publishers are greedy.

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Tad Williams, while not at the level of GRRM or Erikson (or probably a load others), is still far better than Jordan. The bloat is there but his writing is tight and concise compared to Mr J. He's also finished two series in four books each, Jordan wishes he could do that...

The funny thing is, I'm one of those people who loved the first few books and has now managed to trap themselves into waiting for the stories end... :dunno::blush:

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Like most people said, Jordan's work did go down hill a bit. However, I am a voracious reader. I could never put down a WOT novel while I was reading it. Every book was good enough to hold my attention. Even Crossroads of Twilight. I kept waiting for something to happen. No, it was not the best book I have ever read but neither is the cereal box that I read morning after morning while I am eating breakfast. I quit Sword of Truth mid series, mid book. I do not even remember the name of the book. It sucked. Bad. No, WOT is not as good as it started out but its still pretty good. Yes, I will read the last book and I still have faith it will be great if not awesome. In my opinion, Jordan is still a good writer, even at his worst. Goodkind is not even as gripping as a cereal box.

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No, he's not that bad. He has one book I really like (Book 4: The Shadow Rising) and 3-5 others that are pretty decent. But he has been unable to keep the number of plot lines to a manageable level or integrate the minor ones with the main ones in anything even vaguely resembling a satisfying way. As a result, the series has become something like a hobbit wearing the One Ring: it is like butter spread over too much bread.

IMHO, he has a chance to finish it off with one more great book. But this will involve just ignoring a good deal of the more boring plot lines and just concentrating on the main story. I'm not sure he can do that (the way he resolved some of the plot lines in book 11 made me go "OK, you've spent hundreds of pages on this to have it resolved in a few sentences without any impact on anything else in the story?").

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(the way he resolved some of the plot lines in book 11 made me go "OK, you've spent hundreds of pages on this to have it resolved in a few sentences without any impact on anything else in the story?").

Yeah, that's one thing that really annoyed me, which is why I don't think KoD was as good a book as everyone else did. It's why I hate impatient people, as I'd rather give the author a chance to tell the story without rushing them. Of course, in this case I believe it's the fact that he's tired of writing WOT and also dying that's rushing him a bit.

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And Martin hasnt created anything like the Forsaken, or the Aelfinn/Eelfinn, my two favorite things from WOT( and both of them pretty much destroyed by Jordan now :cry: :cry: :cry:

Okay, I realize that was blasphemy. Go on, attack me, but I still stand by what I said. Villains like Jaime Lannister, even if they are the best fighter in the land, are still mortals. With the Forsaken, at least at first, there was something immortal about them.

!!! :stunned: !!!

The Forsaken are some of the worst villains of all time, on par with Dr. Evil or Wily E. Coyote. Their constant bungling, feuding, and general incompetence is only saved by Jordan's bizarre decision to bring them back to life again and again. If one were to write a parody of WOT, the Forsaken parts could be left alone and still serve as parody.

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I will buy and read the last book. Not because I love the series anymore, but I do want to know how it ends.

I wonder if my initial love of the series was because I was 13 when I started it. But, then I re-read the series and found that the first few book were rather enjoyable. I actually liked the characters and was excited about where the story was going.

But, over time, I found myself hating the characters. I can't stand Rand, and isn't he supposed to be the hero? And the roles of the women. Three of them are fine with sharing Rand? Even I live in Utah and can't buy that. What the fuck with all the braid tugging and skirt smoothing? Perrin has just become bland.

I also have lost interest with where the story seems to be going and when the plot seems to finally go in an interesting direction (Mat saving Morraine) there is no possible way that Jordan can wrap that and the Last Battle up in a way that doesn't seem rushed.

Of course, my feelings really changed after I started AGOT. I had never expected much from fantasy until I picked up Martin. I very much enjoyed Feast, my disapointment was that I wanted more right away. To me this makes a great book, not a bad one.

With Jordan I just want closer.

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Am I the only one who was rather bored shitless during most of the first six books? I don't think Robert Jordan even understands what "streamlining" is.

I wasn't bored per se, but I got to a point in one of the books where I realized that I couldn't remember what had happened two books before, at which point I kind of gave up. It might not be Jordan's fault; after all I had other things going on in my life. Once all of the books are out in softcover, if I ever find myself with six months of free time on my hands I'll probably try again. I was much younger, but I don't remember thinking they were bad, I was just having trouble keeping track of them.

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GRRM is and always has been a professional writer, with a degree in journalism (a Master's, I think).

Jordan has a degree in physics, was in the Army, and did other stuff before writing novels.

GRRM has the educational background and training NOT to lose a story arc. Jordan...not so much.

Odd then that he has fallen into the trap far faster than Jordan did. Regardless I'd think GRRM's degree is in economics not journalism; they generally teach you how to end stories in Journalism.

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After reading this thread my opinion is that he's given both too much and too little credit, at the same time. I don't think the early books were quite as great as they're made out to be and I don't think the latter books are quite as bad as they're made out to be either.

But then I guess I should add that this is one series where I continue to read it even though I don't really care where the story is going. Kind of like the Harry Potter- books. It's kind of obvious from the start how it's all going to end so that's not really anything to worry about, the main storyline isn't all that interesting and the characters are mostly annoying. In spite of this, there is something about the series that keeps fascinating me so clearly he's doing something right.

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