Is Jordan really that bad?

[Muttering Bill]

That's a terrible answer, because Jordan is 100X better than Tairy.

Well, maybe not 100x. But much better at any rate. Even with all the frustrations of the last 4 books, it's still an overall decent story. Yes, the man's writing has suffered, but he's no Tairy.

[EHK for Darwin]

If Jordan had to rush KoD, its largely because he spent the 5 books before that just dicking around. After 20,000 pages or so...readers expect some resolution. We're just soooo damned unreasonable like that. It came off as checklist driven, 'going through the motions' piece of workmanship not because readers were impatient, but because Jordan is a shit author who completely lost control of the story. And he simply wasn't capable of getting it back on track in any sort of inspired (or anything remotely approaching that) way.

[Morrigan]

Jordan on the other hand has completely lost control of his story, grinding it to a snails pace and filling the pages with redundant females, indecipherable in names and characteristics. Plot points laid down in book 2 still manage to dangle and the rare moments of resolution usually have an uninspired, 'going through the motions' type of feel to them. He's neutered his villains, butchered his heroes, sapped any and all tension from any situation because you know the 'Fellowship' will always, improbably come out unscathed. Lets face it, the book hasn't had a memorable moment since 6 and that was a bloated mammoth itself. RJ knows how to fill pages. He just doesn't know how to place anything interesting or relevant on them.

Yes, he does suck. No, he's not worth reading. No, there really is no hope of recovery. The guy is George Lucas...whatever he did once have, he lost a LONG, LONG time ago.

100% agreed. I would not recommend WoT to anyone, even if I myself will read (maybe even buy, just to be a completist) the last volume. But that's because I got so far and I might as well finish it. It's really not worth starting, though.

Your description is very apt, although I wonder whether the villains were not always neutered and the heros not already lame from the start. Someone brought up Aginor and Belthamel, and honestly, the braid-tugging, loud sniffing, "women!"/"men!" eye-rolling caricatures have always been present.

Still, I remember feeling something in the first books, like when he introduced the Seanchan and their collar-enslaving ways. I remember cringing at how the young Aes Sedai apprentices got treated, even if I didn't really like them. Jordan was never very good, but he used to have redeeming qualities. Now though...? I swear I will do a dance of joy if that irritating, vapid wench Tuon gets brutally beheaded.

!!! !!!

The Forsaken are some of the worst villains of all time, on par with Dr. Evil or Wily E. Coyote. Their constant bungling, feuding, and general incompetence is only saved by Jordan's bizarre decision to bring them back to life again and again. If one were to write a parody of WOT, the Forsaken parts could be left alone and still serve as parody.

Too true. Their constant revivals only add to the grotesquerie of it all.

The Forsaken are supposed to be frighteningly powerful, and Jordan keeps saying so in the text, but he hardly provides evidence of that. Apparently he hasn't heard of the saying "show, don't tell".

The abbreviated version:

Books one to six, very good.

Books seven to ten, absolute garbage, punctuated by about four good chapters.

Book eleven, return to form, though not up to standard of first six. Serious damge done by seven to ten, seems impossible to tie it up in one more book

Seems spot-on. Still, book 11 was overrated IMO. It was a tad better than the others before, because it wasn't as slow-paced, but it still had all of the old flaws (braid-tugging clichés and horrible handling of prophecies), and seriously I want Tuon to get maimed, raped and murdered.

[Padraig]

and seriously I want Tuon to get maimed, raped and murdered.

Blah. I've been told these sort of comments crop up when people start talking about books.

[Talyn]

Seems spot-on. Still, book 11 was overrated IMO. It was a tad better than the others before, because it wasn't as slow-paced, but it still had all of the old flaws (braid-tugging clichés and horrible handling of prophecies), and seriously I want Tuon to get maimed, raped and murdered.

Agreed. The main problem that I had with the book was that it was to fast paced. It seemed like one of the charaters would decide to do something and half a dozen pages latter it would be done. For example that bussiness with Semirhage was originally meant to be that short. all you have to do is compare it with his battles in the earlir books. It's better than the previous couple of books where it would have taken the whole book to get to the point, but only just.

I don't see how he is going to finish the series in one more book. I would rather have two or three at the quality of books 2-6.

[kastor]

Let's not forget how he sold out

[oneeye]

!!! !!!

The Forsaken are some of the worst villains of all time, on par with Dr. Evil or Wily E. Coyote. Their constant bungling, feuding, and general incompetence is only saved by Jordan's bizarre decision to bring them back to life again and again. If one were to write a parody of WOT, the Forsaken parts could be left alone and still serve as parody.

hahaha well said!)

[Caligula_K]

I wonder if 'A memory of light' (or whatever it's called) will be released as one huge book or if the publishers will bs and say 'we had to split the book into two. Here's the first part to be going on with, you might have to wait a bit for part two though...'

Mine and my friend's theory is that there's only one more Wheel of Time book... split into seven parts. And I wouldn't say that book 11's problem is that its too fast paced- rather, its still very slow paced, but then a few things happen very quickly and rather anti-climactically.

[Morrigan]

/shun

Seriously, I thought people were joking when they said we had idiots who said idiotic crap like this. I am embarassed for the board.

Oh, cry me a river. Haven't you ever heard of a thing called "hyperbole"? Whiner.

[Guarneri]

On that note may I add that all the Aes Sedai should be systematically impaled with fiery magic rods?

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Gotta add my voice to thebadlady -- hyperbole or not, it's really disturbing how easily people throw around maimings, rapes, and murders when discussing how little they like someone.

IOW: I believe you when you say you don't mean it (not least because who gets that worked up over imaginary people?). I still find it disturbing that you think it's okay to use as a punishment - just for being "someone" you don't like?

[Guarneri]

If you know they're simply hyperboles meant to express an extreme dislike (and what better way than linking it with things that represent methods of expressing that extreme dislike) then I am not sure why it's bothering. Those hyperboles are tossed around so much, and it's so obvious they aren't literal, that the meaning seems to be pretty diluted to me.

Deep breaths.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

To you; not to everyone. For me, it's precisely because they're tossed around so easily that I find it disturbing. Also, I don't think murder or rape is a healthy way of expressing extreme dislike, so I can think of plenty of "better ways".

[Padraig]

Also, I don't think murder or rape is a healthy way of expressing extreme dislike, so I can think of plenty of "better ways".

Yes, lets pretend to be well-read at least.

[Guarneri]

To you; not to everyone. For me, it's precisely because they're tossed around so easily that I find it disturbing. Also, I don't think murder or rape is a healthy way of expressing extreme dislike, so I can think of plenty of "better ways".

You find it disturbing because they're tossed around a lot in jest, without actually bringing the events described into reality? If people went around doing these things, surely it'd be horrible, but used without any literal meaning or desire, then pffaw! You say you don't think it's a healthy way, but mind detailing how it in any way has a bearing upon mental or physical health? Yes, there are many ways of describing extreme dislike, but hyperboles are still valid methods, and the more methods the merrier, as it prevents a wider variety and allowed them to stand out more.

[Padraig]

You find it disturbing because they're tossed around a lot in jest, without actually bringing the events described into reality? If people went around doing these things, surely it'd be horrible, but used without any literal meaning or desire, then pffaw! You say you don't think it's a healthy way, but mind detailing how it in any way has a bearing upon mental or physical health? Yes, there are many ways of describing extreme dislike, but hyperboles are still valid methods, and the more methods the merrier, as it prevents a wider variety and allowed them to stand out more.

Oh come on. The whole "that charcter should be raped" is one of the most repetitive, unimaginative forms of degradations around.

And its not a joke. In their view, its an approprioate way to show their dislike for a female (or male) character.

As for mental health, you really think its perfectly normal to be going around wishing somebody was "raped". Even if only in jest?

[Guarneri]

Ay, 'tis rather repetitive. I wouldn't mind some more creative variations, but oh well, such is life.

Yes, if it's in jest, and they have no actual intention for that person to be literally raped then I don't see any effects upon mental health. So, perfectly normal to me.

[Monboddo]

We all write things we shouldn't on this board. No big deal. Helps relieve the stress. It's also a hell of a lot of fun.

For the record I don't want Tuon to be raped or maimed. But that cold b*tch does need to get laid.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

:sigh:

Anyway, in answer to the original post, no I don't think Jordan is "really that bad". However, I do think that his later books are not as good as his first. (Caveat: I have not read all published novels in the series, but I have read at least through book 9. Possibly 10. The fact that I can't remember, even when reading plot summaries, is not a good sign. )

I can understand why people enjoy the series, but it isn't one I would recommend blindly, and I would probably try to come up with other suggestions first.

[Sarth]

My previous post in reference to rape got deleted so I'll be more tame and just say you are beating a dead horse.

Wait...dammit..."beating a dead horse" glorifies animal cruelty, murder of animals and sheer wanton violence. Just really a no win situation...no matter what you say, someone cries.

How about I just go with the whole debate over rape is double plus ungood? Should be safe.