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Is Jordan really that bad?


ser jon stark

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I've always had a soft spot for robert Jordan, every since many moons ago i picked up the first 3 books, read them in two days and then immediately preordered the Shadow Rising.

i think Lord of Chaos was where it peaked. Dumai's wells was just awesome, and the whole Black Tower bit was excellent. book 7 was okay. 8 was passable, then winters heart redeemed itself after a slow start with the epic finale.

however, Crossroads of Twilight... now that's a waste of the paper it's printed on. i could have wrote the book for him in about two pages, and more would have happened. But i suppose in a series so big, these things are inevitable.

then Knife of dreams was good again. not Lord Of Chaos good by any means, but back to good. so i wait with renewed hope for aMoL =)

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Gotta add my voice to thebadlady -- hyperbole or not, it's really disturbing how easily people throw around maimings, rapes, and murders when discussing how little they like someone.

IOW: I believe you when you say you don't mean it (not least because who gets that worked up over imaginary people?). I still find it disturbing that you think it's okay to use as a punishment - just for being "someone" you don't like?

? I said that about the character because she annoys me. It's really that simple.

...Fine, okay, there's also the fact that there is a touch of delightful irony in a high-and-mighty Empress heir in having her dignity trashed in brutal ways.

Yes, lets pretend to be well-read at least.

Oh come on. The whole "that charcter should be raped" is one of the most repetitive, unimaginative forms of degradations around.

Yeah, so I wasn't feeling particularly creative when I quickly wrote that during a quick pause at work. But that river's coming nicely, thanks.

And its not a joke. In their view, its an approprioate way to show their dislike for a female (or male) character.

Speaking of well-read... :lol: But no matter, your reading comprehension sucks more than your spelling. It is indeed an appropriate way to show a dislike, but that doesn't mean it's not a joke. It can be both.

As for mental health, you really think its perfectly normal to be going around wishing somebody was "raped". Even if only in jest?

I question the mental health of anyone who thinks I (or anyone else for that matter) think I genuinely get that worked up over fiction. Stop being a drama queen.

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? I said that about the character because she annoys me. It's really that simple.

...Fine, okay, there's also the fact that there is a touch of delightful irony in a high-and-mighty Empress heir in having her dignity trashed in brutal ways.

Let me take this opportunity to direct you to the Tairy Goodkind section of your bookstore. I am sure you will find enough of that in there to sustain you.

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(Caveat: I have not read all published novels in the series, but I have read at least through book 9. Possibly 10. The fact that I can't remember, even when reading plot summaries, is not a good sign. :P)

How can you not tell the difference?

At the end of book 9, Elayne's still besieged in Caemlyn, "Mat flees with the kidnapped Daughter of the Nine Moons, whom he is fated to marry, pursued by the army of the Seanchan Empire as well as by the Dark One. Perrin is trying to rescue his wife, Faile, from the Shaido. Egwene, now Amyrlin of the rebel Aes Sedai, and her forces lay siege to the White Tower, where Elaida wears the Amyrlin shawl. The Aes Sadai must be reunited to defend against the Dark One. And Rand al' Thor, the Dragon Reborn," passes out after cleansing saidin.

At the end of book 10, Elayne's still besieged in Caemlym, "Mat flees with the kidnapped Daughter of the Nine Moons, whom he is fated to marry, pursued by the army of the Seanchan Empire as well as by the Dark One. Perrin is trying to rescue his wife, Faile, from the Shaido. Egwene, now Amyrlin of the rebel Aes Sedai, and her forces lay siege to the White Tower, where Elaida wears the Amyrlin shawl. The Aes Sadai must be reunited to defend against the Dark One. And Rand al' Thor, the Dragon Reborn," wakes up.

See? The difference is obvious. Rand wakes up. Also, in the last two or three pages, he meets Logain and sends messengers to the Seanchan.

ETA: Oh, yeah. Egwene gets kidnapped again, too. She then spends most of book 11 getting spanked.

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? I said that about the character because she annoys me. It's really that simple.

Simple, sure, but still disturbing. I mean, why not just say "You know, I really don't like her."

...Fine, okay, there's also the fact that there is a touch of delightful irony in a high-and-mighty Empress heir in having her dignity trashed in brutal ways.

"Delightful"? Nice.

Speaking of well-read... :lol: But no matter, your reading comprehension sucks more than your spelling. It is indeed an appropriate way to show a dislike, but that doesn't mean it's not a joke. It can be both.

No, I think he got the point pretty well - the main idea is that you think it's acceptable to wish someone raped, or maimed, or mutilated. Did Myrcella deserve it? Tysha? Tyrion? Did he deserve to have his nose cut off?

I question the mental health of anyone who thinks I (or anyone else for that matter) think I genuinely get that worked up over fiction. Stop being a drama queen.

You know, that's not helping. That means you think that rape is an acceptable, throwaway line to wish on someone. Right now it's someone fictional, but what about those who will come in, read this, and think that we as a board condone it in general? It does happen, before you accuse me of hyperbole.

Besides, you said something nasty, I and others were offended and said so, you all get huffy and sarcastic, and we're the ones being drama queens? At least you didn't say we should be raped, which is more than I can say for others in this thread. Still, the words "pot" and "kettle" spring to mind.

AverageGuy: :lol: So silly of me! How could I not tell the difference?? Anyway, I'm pretty sure I only got through 9; I remember the cleansing, but not Rand waking up. Spanking, though? Was it consensual? I might have to read that one (11, was it?) after all. :P

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Morrigan, congrats for spotting a spelling error. I'm very proud of you. :lol:

As for the rest let me recap:

1) We've learned you make jokes about rape. You must be so admired.

2) You don't get worked up over fiction but you do imagine ways for characters to get their come-uppance. The more brutal the better.

3) You sometimes feel creative but hopefully we wouldn't see the results.

4) People who argue with you are whining drama queens. Honoured.

Edited to add: Ok...this discussion has been taken to this thread I see.

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...but anyways, Jordan was brought up in an era of "Southern gentleman chivalry", so his reticence at describing anything more than kissing, and his constant jokes about men and women not understanding each other, I think should be taken with some understanding.

Or...he simply isn't good enough to write real people.

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...then winters heart redeemed itself after a slow start with the epic finale.

I thought that on my first time through as well. A clean Source and handful of dead Forsaken. On my second time through... I guess I was mistaken on the body count. Cleansing the source is a significant event, but he's failed to handle it properly. Crossroads should have been spent exploring the implications of a clean Saidin, but all we really got was a list of channelers being nervous about the shiny lights. Oh my got! Someones channeling! For 800 pages! He did start tossing it in for 11 though.

however, Crossroads of Twilight... now that's a waste of the paper it's printed on. i could have wrote the book for him in about two pages, and more would have happened. But i suppose in a series so big, these things are inevitable.

I think we're all agreed on that, at least.

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I thought Winter's Heart was kind of pointless myself. There was no logic or reasoning behind the cleansing. Or if there was (fan-speculation had some reasonable explanations), there was no buildup or support in the wasted several hundred pages before it. Simply Rand wandering around to new spots on the map for a bit. (like magic free city that oddly enough did not get a single mention in the preceeding 9 books...you figure something like that...and the ability to do that would be significant) Than he showed up, channeled a bit, Taint cleansed. Showing some of the actual investigation into how to do it would have been helpful. (and made the previous pages worthwhile) Instead we get a climax with no buildup.

Jordan blows it once again.

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People felt bogged down. My opinion is that his plots became out of synch, so Mat and Tuon wasn't where Perrin and Faile or Rand and saidin were, so he had to play catchup to prepare for the final movement. Mat and Tuon are no more slow, bogged down, or detailed than Rand and Aviendha, or Perrin and Faile, it's just that by book 10 people feel the "story" should have moved beyond that "phase."

I don't think those are fair comparisons. Perrin and Faile flirted while they tracked Rand to Tear, and then some more while they saved The Two Rivers from the Whitecloaks. Rand and Aviendha got their love/hate relationship while uniting the Aiel under Rand's command, invading Cairhein and Camelyn, and trying to establish some control over the world. Mat and Tuon had the beginning phases of their relationship while sitting in a circus tent doing absolutely nothing, and they were part of the most active storyline in 10. The other characters were sitting on their rears, speculating that at some time in the future they might do something.

Book 10 doesn't work as part of any act.

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As most have said, I really think the story got away from Jordan. It had a good start, and I'd say as a whole, even with the slow middle books, its better than 70% of the fantasy out there.

the biggest downside is Jordan really cannot write women well. I find myself filling in "other" character traits for them, kind of doing little rewrites in my head. It makes them a lot less annoying and a bit more realistic.

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the biggest downside is Jordan really cannot write women well. I find myself filling in "other" character traits for them, kind of doing little rewrites in my head. It makes them a lot less annoying and a bit more realistic.

He's even admitted that he doesn't write women well. Which makes his decision to have 95% of the characters in the books women all the more baffling. He makes up for it by giving these hundreds of female characters a single personality though. So all works out I guess. :)

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