Malazan

[Garlan the Gallant]

Iv read everything from C.S. Lewis to Bakker to Martin to Tolkien to Rowling to Eddings to McCaffrey to Jordan to Edison (i started a goodkind and thought my brain was going to die from boredom...if that counts) but somehow never made it to Malazan. The thing that always kept me away from it is its a ten book series. Dont get me wrong i love long books and even better long series with long books, but i dont want to start it get to book 4 and be like "this is going to slow or going nowhere" as i did with the dark tower series...so i was wondering if i could hear some various opinions about the series WITHOUT SPOILERS...please keep out things such like "i didnt like that it had a happy or sad ending" "to many/not enough characters died" or things to that respect. also i would like to know if this series is just a simple heroes quest...as im sick to death of these...

thanks for your comments...

-Garlan

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

The one complaint you'll never have about it is 'this is slow/going nowhere'. You may not like it, but that wont be why. There's quite a bit of carnage in the series.

Me, I love it.

[Errant Bard]

Malazan is a comics in the form of a novel.

I mean that to enjoy it, you have to forget that it starts from nowhere and is getting nowhere, that the story is powered by its plotholes, that character development is awkward or inexistent and that even a random grunt can hurt or kill a creature that was said to have godlike powers.

If you can stand that, there are several scenes and substories that are pretty good, and the bloated cast is entertaining in its own right, in a marvel anthology kind of way.

And no, since the overarching story is barely existing compared to the host of side stories and anecdots, this isn't a heroes quest thing.

[EHK for Darwin]

There are threads on it. But since I'm not a fan of those 20 page (threads, not books) behemoths either, a new one is always welcome. (though others will insist that the search option is your friend on this matter. There are several Erickson threads already)

I was initially excited about it. The first book is often described as a chaotic, poorly organized mess. I got into it though. It introduced so many characters that redefine badass. A power gamer's wet dream. Like Godzilla, Mothra, MechaGodzilla, King Kong, Optimus Prime and Chuck Norris all slugging it out page after page. It was fun.

The second book (which most will suggest you finish before you decide if the series is for you. While its not a universal sentiment, most consider this the most compelling read of the bunch.) takes it to a new level and a different direction. While it had some storylines I'd quickly slice and dice, the central one was one of the most poignant and gripping I'd read in recent memory. Depressing as shit and often quite powerful. It also introduces (I believe) the most fully realized and complex character in the series. (not erickson's strong point really)

The third is where it started to turn for me. Chronic info dumps, abuse of Dues Ex, retcons and other shit that started to annoy me. 4th had moments and wasn't a bad read. 5th was unreadable...and its still collecting dust on my shelf.

Generally, Erickson isn't a great writer. But his prose isn't painful by any stretch. His world is HUGE. I mean massive. Spanning hundreds of thousands of years (not the actual story, but some of the background), countless races and eras of history and prehistory. But while it has alot of breadth, I've rarely found it to have alot of depth. And especially in the third book he weighs you down with so much information you're occasionally asking yourself 'Do I really need to know this?'

As I said, characterization is his weak point. While a few stand out, many are quite redundant. With a few exceptions, many of his 'soldiers' could be almost interchangeable. He does badass well and packs more of them into a pile of pages than any modern fantasy author, but even that gets old at times. He abuses the Deus Ex at times and some of his endings are almost too easy. While the modern trend in fantasy is towards limiting the effect of magic, he does the opposite in a big way with people flinging world/city destroying spells seemingly at will. His magic system is interesting, but at times seems little more than a sketch and occasionally a convoluted one.

Like I said, I've stopped reading the series. It wouldn't be first on my 'recommended' list for anyone. But I also wouldn't outright recommend against it. It has alot of fans here. (as well as some vocal detractors) The story doesn't stagnate like WoT (although there are without a doubt some uneeded pages, passages, and storylines throughout), nor is it utter shit like Goodkind. But its not atop any lists of mine. I'd suggest the first two books and go from there. If you find it to your liking, that's usually a good sign.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

It is one of the three top series for me - together with Martin and Bakker, but is is also definitely one of those "love or hate" books, so you must deicde for yourself. Erikson may be weak on characterization, but his world is huge and fascinating, and he also has an overarching plot which actually goes somewhere which I am afraid may be no longer true about Martin.

[potsherds]

I agree with EHK on a lot of his points...actually probably most of them. Except that I like the books. A lot.

I think a primary difference is that Erikson didn't start going downhill after two, in my opinion. Popular opinion is actually that book 3 is as good or better than 2. Also, I've noticed something of a divide where Americans won't like book 5 (I didn't) and everyone else positively love it, nearly as much as 3 (that's a massive over-generalization). The last two books were pretty poor, in my opinion, and I'm really hoping he does better on the last 3.

I'm a very big fan of his humour and his philosophizing, which helps. He took the road less travelled and, this being fantasy gave females all the same abilities, careers, powers, etc, that the males do, and I find the equity in their portrayal very attractive.

[EHK for Darwin]

he also has an overarching plot which actually goes somewhere which I am afraid may be no longer true about Martin.

Eh...that's stretching it. He has an overarching plot, but nothing really happens with it til the third book and not much than either. Really, each of the books were more or less their own self-contained stories with occasional progress towards the larger storyline. At least for the books I've read, you can write that shit without the

SPOILER: spoiler

Chained god

and really not lose anything noticeable in the individual books. That doesn't speak well for the overarching plot. And considering some of the characters that do little more than wander around for a few books before they become important (so I hear...never got to those later books), I think its a bit unfair to levy that criticism at Martin without also doing it for Erickson.

[RedEyedGhost]

I like the series - not as much as Martin or Bakker, but it's definitely top 5-10 for me. I'm actually reading book 5 right now, Midnight Tides, but I'm only about a hundred pages in. So far my favorite has been Memories of Ice, with the other three tied for second (House of Chains would be my second favorite if I had to choose, but they're all pretty close). I love the how massive the world is, including the history and all of the races. I also think the magic system is pretty cool.

I so understand why people don't like it that much though. You'll just have to try it for yourself Hope you enjoy it!

With a few exceptions, many of his 'soldiers' could be almost interchangeable.

Isn't that the point of basic training IRL? Most of the ROTC people I knew in college were interchangeable.

[Tes'thesula]

Yes, it's good.

Helpful I know

[Dycedarg]

Definitely a hit or miss series (and even if it hits, it may not be for the same reasons as anyone else). Me, I love the series with a few reservations. Caveat: I'm only about halfway through Midnight Tides now so I don't have a complete picture of the series. Still, given that I've covered two books each in the Bridgeburners and Whirlwind arcs and half of MT, I figure that's enough to help.

I don't mind the length (I've been a Wheel of Time reader since almost the beginning *sobs*) though the pacing is at times a bit suspect. For example, while I generally liked Memories of Ice it felt like too much time was spent in Capustan relative to the conclusion. If I didn't know better, I'd have sworn that the Pannion plot would have spanned two books the way it started out.

Erikson likes dropping you right into the middle of things with explanations coming several books later. Don't worry, you're not alone in your confusion. If you absolutely must know what's going on, someone on the boards here can probably give you a non-spoilery explanation even if we have to omit a few details.

This next bit is just because I need to let off some steam, anyone who hasn't read up to book four can skip it.

SPOILER: House of Chains

Was I the only person really disappointed with the way the the rebellion played out? Given the blurb on the back of the book and how dangerous the Whirlwind was made out to be in DHG, I thought the fact that Tavore's army could march all the way to the heart of Raraku with barely any opposition was a joke. Apparently the Apocalypse isn't what it used to be. I know, the point is that the Whirlwind Goddess was bonkers but come on. After the mess a disorganized rebellion made of Seven Cities, I expected better in HoC. Felisin lost a lot of the points she earned in DHG after spending the whole book sitting around and doing nothing while the rebellion collapsed around her (then dying via deus ex). Yes, I know the arc continues in Bonehunters, I'm not there yet.

[EHK for Darwin]

Dycedarg

SPOILER: MoI

I found much the same problem with Memories of Ice and some other conclusions. They spend a long time building up these threats than they're demolished with relative ease. The main MoI enemies were foreshadowed since book 1, referred to as the 'real threat', constant talk about the desperate situation of the 'good guys', the near irresistable force of the villains...and yet when it came to the final battle there was a swift and immediate response to almost anything the bad guys threw at them. Got magical flying beasts? We got thousands more who show up at the exact right second to anniliate yours. You got 100,000 year old skeletal, immortal killing machines? We got em too, just wait for the chick who runs them to show up. Sure there were some casualties, but the execution of those was often clumsy and the emotion it tried to elicit from them felt quite forced. Its not good when the MASSIVE enemy that former rivals united to defeat could have been taken care of with half their forces. Most of his conclusions seem too easy and often with heavy Dues Ex elements. Not just House of Chains. Wouldn't be too bad, but he builds each of them up to enormous proportions and never meets the expectations he sets.

[zakalwe7]

Malazan is a comics in the form of a novel.

Exactly what i feel. The whole thing just seems like a comic as i read it.

[Spectralist]

I think it's good, but not really great. The biggest complaint for me is that Erikson seems unable stick with one character for any reasonable amount of time. It seems like every five or six pages he jumps to a different character, with little to no reason for it. It comes off as very disorganized to me, unlike... uh... better authors who will generally switch point of view when there is some logical reason to it(you know, like the conclusion of a scene or circumstance) Erikson often jumps pov more-or-less mid sentence. He also seems almost afraid of telling the reader what's going on, and will jump pov whenever something interesting and informative is about to happen(book three is especially bad for that). And many times he'll swap pov clearly with the intent to build tension(especially in the later books), which might work to some people, but it just pisses me off.

At the beginning of the fourth book, however, he sticks with one character for about 200 pages. It's easily the best part of the series, even if it centers around a character that isn't all that interesting to me. Still if Erikson did that more often he'd likely be one of my favorite authors.

'Couse for all the annoying pov jumps Malazan still isn't all bad, it's got a lot of energy. And while few to none of the characters are really deep they are often interesting in an archetypal sort of way.

[Lyanna Stark]

Rearding the use of so called Deus Ex Machina in Erikson's world:

I don't actually think he uses a lot of Deus Ex Machina as such. If you start re-reading the earlier books once you've read book 5-6, it suddenly won't seem so Deus Ex Machine anymore, it will make sense from the bigger perspective. Some things that seemed to come completely out of left field when you read things the first time (I find especially MoI suffered from this) makes a lot more sense once you've read the later books.

I put it down more to Erikson's writing style, that he LIKES to keep you in the dark, to keep you confused and guessing, and then 400 pages later you go "KA-ChiNG!" cos you finally understand the bigger picture.

Some people hate that. Personally, I don't mind at all. I find it more challenging than annoying to keep lots of plot threads in my head.

Regarding pacing, I think mostly, the Malazan books are pretty fast past, with some odd exceptions here and there, for instance the first part of HoC which really dragged for me. Same with the first half on tBH.

I have to agree that for me, Book 2 "Deadhouse Gates" (shoulda been called "Chain of Dogs" really ) is the superior book in the series. I think "Memories of Ice" and "Midnight Tides" come in as seconds, but nothing beats the formidable scale and power to grab you that "Deadhouse Gates" has. Plus it doesn't hurt that he in this book introduces probably the best written female character in fantasy literature.

For me, Erikson is a nice mixture of comic book fantasy and Greek tragedies, so both high and low, superheroes, philosphy, epic scale an ancient cultures, not to mention an ENORMOUS world.

[Ser Paladin]

For all the love and hate that this series receives, I was pretty middle of the road on it. I had no desire to go on after DHG, so the next book languished on my bookshelf for a long while. With nothing else in front of it in the queue, I have caught up to the books that have been released in the US.

I have no desire to re-read the books (as opposed to Tolkien, Martin, Bakker, etc), but I will read the remainder of the series to see how it ends. It's a 6 overall. Just barely good enough to keep me reading.

[oneeye]

Is it like pandora's star or redemption ark with lots of uninteresting characters?

[Shryke]

Great series, but not for everyone.

And I don't understand the Midnight Tides hate. I thought it was one of the best. A very nice tragedy.

[Shryke]

Dycedarg

SPOILER: MoI

I found much the same problem with Memories of Ice and some other conclusions. They spend a long time building up these threats than they're demolished with relative ease. The main MoI enemies were foreshadowed since book 1, referred to as the 'real threat', constant talk about the desperate situation of the 'good guys', the near irresistable force of the villains...and yet when it came to the final battle there was a swift and immediate response to almost anything the bad guys threw at them. Got magical flying beasts? We got thousands more who show up at the exact right second to anniliate yours. You got 100,000 year old skeletal, immortal killing machines? We got em too, just wait for the chick who runs them to show up. Sure there were some casualties, but the execution of those was often clumsy and the emotion it tried to elicit from them felt quite forced. Its not good when the MASSIVE enemy that former rivals united to defeat could have been taken care of with half their forces. Most of his conclusions seem too easy and often with heavy Dues Ex elements. Not just House of Chains. Wouldn't be too bad, but he builds each of them up to enormous proportions and never meets the expectations he sets.

SPOILER: MOI

That was part of the point with the Pannion Domin. It was unsustainable without constant expansion. Once they broke the army at Capustan, there wasn't alot left, especially with Lady Envy, Tool and the Seguleh chewing the shit out of his armies in the south.

[Jaxom 1974]

Actually I'm slogging my way through Deadhouse Gates right now and I have Memory of Ice on my shelf to get to eventually.

Erikson is an enigma to me. He really seems to relish drawing things out. There was enough in Gardens of the Moon to get me to look at the next two. There's been enough in Deadhouse Gates to keep me intrigued (timing is mainly while I'm slogging through it, not because I don't like it).

I do struggle at times with the bloating and the convalutedness of the story as a whole. But I've read enough of these threads to know that patience should have it's reward. Erikson's going to get at least 3 books out of me. I'll see about things after that.

I think "Memories of Ice" and "Midnight Tides" come in as seconds, but nothing beats the formidable scale and power to grab you that "Deadhouse Gates" has. Plus it doesn't hurt that he in this book introduces probably the best written female character in fantasy literature.

Deadhouse Gates has probably the best written female character in fantasy literature? Where? I don't see it. There's really just the one female protagonist who's POV we see and the writing for her (so far in the book, I'm still going, but I don't expect a change) doesn't hold a candle to Catelyn Stark. The only other female character in the story isn't specifically a main one, so I don't know that she's all that at this moment either.

Unless you meant someone else?

[Errant Bard]

Plus it doesn't hurt that he in this book introduces probably the best written female character in fantasy literature.

Who is that? Apsalar?

Despite the fact that the MBotF features females everywhere, I'm afraid to say they are a sort of indistinct blur in my memory because of their relative lack of original or credible personality. I don't see how any character in MBotF can be considered well developped, it's beyond me

I mean, there is... Sorry, Felisin, Tavore, Picker, Blend, Envy, Tattersail and... I forgot the rest, except for that drunk lieutnant in BH, she was awesome during the Malaz episode.