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BAKKER VI: Death comes swirling down


Happy Ent

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Quick question. Why does Kellhus believe that the Dunyan will side with the Consult (and presumably try to destroy all or most life) once they learn the 'truth' about the outside? I thought I had it pegged down, but reading some posts on Bakker's board leave me less certain. (call that completely uncertain)
Part of it is that they would want to avoid damnation, but I don't think they really care about that on their path to the Logos. What they really want to do is the same thing that they did when they went to their monastery; they want to reduce the number of variables they have to deal with to achieve perfection. The more closed off they can become, the more they can focus on being perfect and not have to worry about outside influences.

The Outside, God and the spiritual world - all of these are forces well beyond their knowledge or control at this time, and there's a good chance that they cannot be controlled by any means they can use. So instead of controlling them, they'll just make sure they can't have any influence. Problem solved.

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Akka has Seswatha's memories. Seswatha actually faced the no-god with Khellus' ancestor, and killed him, that is when he heard the words. Akka hears them through his Seswatha memories. It happened all through the serie, but Akka's visions actually slightly changed, and at the end the one pronouncing the fated word isn't the no-god, it's the Anasûrimbor king.

It made sense for Akka to remember the No-God's voice, but then why does Kellhus suddenly hear it after they've left the Battleplain? I thought that was an ominous sign of Kellhus having some connection to the Consult, but I really didn't know what to make of it.

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It made sense for Akka to remember the No-God's voice, but then why does Kellhus suddenly hear it after they've left the Battleplain? I thought that was an ominous sign of Kellhus having some connection to the Consult, but I really didn't know what to make of it.
Khellus is one of the few, he picks up the No-God's resonance in the plain. The magic/memories in the plain are so strong that half the army cannot sleep for fear of nightmares sent by that battle's resonance. If I recall correctly.
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Khellus is one of the few, he picks up the No-God's resonance in the plain. The magic/memories in the plain are so strong that half the army cannot sleep for fear of nightmares sent by that battle's resonance. If I recall correctly.
True, but that's not where Kellhus heard the No-God. He heard him miles and miles away after crossing the desert.

I figure this was Kellhus' justification for believing in something greater than the Logos; it's up to the reader to determine whether he's actually insane, being manipulated by the No-God, or is destined for Something Greater. Given Akka's dream, I think that it's his being manipulated; after all, while the Consult has been revealed their primary goal of wiping out as many Few and schoolmen as possible was done, as was a massive weakening of the humans that can actively resist them.

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True, but that's not where Kellhus heard the No-God. He heard him miles and miles away after crossing the desert.

Yeah, that's what I meant in my post. Why does he hear it after they've left the Battleplain?

I figure this was Kellhus' justification for believing in something greater than the Logos; it's up to the reader to determine whether he's actually insane, being manipulated by the No-God, or is destined for Something Greater. Given Akka's dream, I think that it's his being manipulated; after all, while the Consult has been revealed their primary goal of wiping out as many Few and schoolmen as possible was done, as was a massive weakening of the humans that can actively resist them.

It would be funny as hell if Kellhus himself was actually being manipulated. I kind of hope that's the case, because it also explains why Kellhus suddenly randomly starts getting those voices/dreams. And it's a queer question to ask: WHAT DO YOU SEE? WHAT AM I?

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I don't think we'll be able to figure out much yet.

The No-God isn't just going to be some generic "ancient evil god". There's something going on their. He's not an evil god, he's the No-God. The opposite of God? He also continually asks "What Am I?", which is just strange. Knowing Bakker, he's going to be something interesting and more about an idea then just Evil Badguy v2.00.31.

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I'm really curious to know what he is because I agree, his questions are weird. And also, how much does magic figure in a world where there's some sci fi element (Golgotterath is a spaceship, the Inchoroi are aliens, etc)? Because although I don't think the No-God is just some genetically modified creature like the Sranc or skin-spies, I also don't really understand what power could have made him, if not sorcery or genetic modification.

Maybe he's an entirely different alien?

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Well, the No-God was created by tekne in some way, but tekne isn't just pure technology, and it's clear that Bakker's world has real magic with real rules and behaviors. Heck, even the genetic skinspies can become souled and practice magic.

The No-God having a carapace of chorae tells me that he's the ultimate of non-magic creatures, at least as far as Earwa is concerned. Perhaps a better way to put it is that he is the negation of magic. Magic comes from the world having souls, from the Outside, so he is the negation of the Outside. That doesn't mean he isn't magic; it means he comes from a place that is in direct opposition to the magic in the world. That doesn't mean he's a demon either; demons are clearly magical in origin and come from Outside.

I would suspect that in addition to the genetic skills that the tekne provides, it also provides access to something that isn't the Outside but functions as magic. The reason that the Inchoroi fight against the Outside is to save their souls from the Outside; they are fundamentally cursed by it. To me, that speaks to some base level of corruption, of some opposition that they have that is part of their nature and part of their abilities. It isn't just some learned skill, it is harnessed power.

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after all, while the Consult has been revealed their primary goal of wiping out as many Few and schoolmen as possible was done, as was a massive weakening of the humans that can actively resist them

This may be so, but I cannot believe all this is to the advantage of the Consult; not only have they been revealed, but the Three Seas is practically united, and all will now believe in the coming Apocolypse.

And while many Schoolmen have been wiped out, look at the potential strengths of the Schools in the near future: No longer will sorcery be forbidden by faith; where before the Schools had to do their best to find those Few who would want to become sorcerors, now many more would apply for the job. Not only that, I don't think the Gnosis will be restricted to just the Mandate for much longer. The only way the Consult could take advantage of the weakening of the Three Seas in the aftermath of the Holy War, is if they invade at once...

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It's a popular theory (I think) on the Three Seas forum that the No-God is actually a prison for all the souls that would normally travel from the Outside to Eärwa, which explains why its presence causes still-births and breaks the connection to the Outside.

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I haven't even been using my account on the Three Seas Forum. Must fix that.

The 'prison for souls' idea isn't bad, and it kind of goes with what Kalbear was saying, about magic that isn't really magic but functions the same way. The No-God almost seems to be completely different from Kellhus. Kellhus goes into his probability trance and sees everyone and comprehends everything and predicts everything that's to come. The No-God just seems...unformed and confused, like a giant lost baby on the loose. A baby that doesn't know its own nature or destructive power. That could explain the No-God's "WHAT AM I?" questions too.

I am privately adoring the idea of a baby evil No-God.

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I haven't even been using my account on the Three Seas Forum. Must fix that.

The 'prison for souls' idea isn't bad, and it kind of goes with what Kalbear was saying, about magic that isn't really magic but functions the same way. The No-God almost seems to be completely different from Kellhus. Kellhus goes into his probability trance and sees everyone and comprehends everything and predicts everything that's to come. The No-God just seems...unformed and confused, like a giant lost baby on the loose. A baby that doesn't know its own nature or destructive power. That could explain the No-God's "WHAT AM I?" questions too.

I am privately adoring the idea of a baby evil No-God.

Yeah, a baby evil No-God who then befriends a puppy in a human/animal buddy movie in which it then proceeds to learn a thing or two about being itself. Awwww, wouldn't that be cute?
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I haven't even been using my account on the Three Seas Forum. Must fix that.

The 'prison for souls' idea isn't bad, and it kind of goes with what Kalbear was saying, about magic that isn't really magic but functions the same way. The No-God almost seems to be completely different from Kellhus. Kellhus goes into his probability trance and sees everyone and comprehends everything and predicts everything that's to come. The No-God just seems...unformed and confused, like a giant lost baby on the loose. A baby that doesn't know its own nature or destructive power. That could explain the No-God's "WHAT AM I?" questions too.

I am privately adoring the idea of a baby evil No-God.

Yeah, that's probably one of the most haunting things about the series. At least to me, anyway. The way the No-God seem terrified. Like it's in the midst of an existential crisis and has no idea what's going on.

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Yeah, that's probably one of the most haunting things about the series. At least to me, anyway. The way the No-God seem terrified. Like it's in the midst of an existential crisis and has no idea what's going on.

That really isn't an unusual concept though (Doesn't the Great Evil Beast in Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run ask something similar?)

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One of the more interesting theories I heard proposed at one time on Three Seas was that the No-God was a container for the Collective Soul of mankind, and when the Consult summoned him, they summoned the Collective Soul of mankind and sealed it into the Carapace.

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