BAKKER VI: Death comes swirling down

[Happy Ent]

I'm going to go out on a limb here...

That's fine. I'll follow you, lets see when it cracks.

and say that you are *kind* of misunderstanding how pre-enlightenment socities actually operated.

Well, it's one of the areas where I (as an amateur) consider myself reasonably well-informed. But I freely admit that my knowledge is sparse, and readily accept the charge of cherry-picking my sources of information. For example, my bible on rape is Natural History of Rape.

But of course I understand that some women have been treated well always, and some women are treated horribly today. No argument there.

Just like today our (legal, officially formulated) doctrine of gender-equality does not mean we actually have real, factual gender-equality, in the past the official doctrine did not neccessarily reflect reality.

For the sake of argument let me take the opposite position here, and phrase that in no uncertain terms.

I think feminism is a Pretty Big Deal. I think it's one of the crowning achievements of civilisation. (With a straight face.) In my book, there is a Hell of a difference between a society where women can own property, and one where they are property. De facto egalitarianism notwithstanding. I think the de jure-part is quite enough to be proud of. (Even if, as you say, it's not all.)

Now, the meme that gender equality is Old News—having existed "always" in some form or even claiming it's existence in some highly specific pre-modern tribal societies one the basis of extremely feeble evidence—make me honestly angry. It diminishes the glory of feminism. As if this child of the Enlightenment were a triviality, instead of a unique achievement. That's why the stance you are sketching above offends me as a feminist. (I also think it's historically inaccurate, but I don't have the credentials to make that argument, so I have to stick to polemics about ideology instead, which makes for more accessible debate anyway)

Aside, just to make sure: We also shouldn't forget that women are routinely raped even today, even in Europe, if they are on the losing side of a war. The Enlightenment has not changed that. It has merely increased our distaste for it.

[Galactus]

I think feminism is a Pretty Big Deal. I think it's one of the crowning achievements of civilisation. (With a straight face.) In my book, there is a Hell of a difference between a society where women can own property, and one where they are property. De facto egalitarianism notwithstanding. I think the de jure-part is quite enough to be proud of. (Even if, as you say, it's not all.)

Oh, I agree, it is also one of the main arguments for the fact that you actually CAN change the world.

Now, the meme that gender equality is Old News—having existed "always" in some form or even claiming it's existence in some highly specific pre-modern tribal societies one the basis of extremely feeble evidence—make me honestly angry.

Which I would be too, if that had been what I was arguing. My point is that the relationships between the genders (and for that matter, between any longstanding oppressive group and an oppressed group, and let's face it women is probably the oldest oppressed group there is) isn't going to be uncomplicated, and it's not going to be one-sides as much as heavily weighed in favour of the oppressive party.

There is a tendency to "cartoonify" the way pre-feminist (and in general pre-democratic) socities worked, in some ways I guess it is the task of the specialist to always, when a layman offer an explanation, shout "Yes, but it's much more complicated than that...." (I know you do the same with evolutionary biology, frequently).

I am also not talking about some kind of mythical egalitarian society in the ancient past (the function of that, and a few other similar myths, are interesting in themselves, but they are myths and not facts) but of how women and men actually operated in pre-modern socities. (not to mention, as the various minority historians keep pointing out, and something you yourself rightly brought up, that while being a woman is determinitive it alone does not determine your status: Class, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, personal characteristics.... And of course a bunch of other contextual problems (War, peace, economic downturn, cultural climate, etc. etc.)

I don't really think the depictions of Serwë or Esmenet are bad per se: They are both not only mariginalized because they are women but are members of mariginalized sub-groups within the larger group of women. But while we see some men who are not mariginalized, we never see ANY women except for Istriya who is not. This skews the picture.

That's okay, for a fictional world, but the problem is that many laymen take this very skewed picture of the pre-modern world and try to apply it on all of society. Yes, women were oppressed in pre-modern times (and still are today) but the KIND of oppression varies. A lot. And the kind of bondage that Esmenet and Serë suffers from, while depressingly common, still was not the experience for most women during medieval, or pre-medieval times.

The oppression they faced was much more subtle, and I daresay, much more dangerous.

[Calibandar]

Well, as far as I know it's not a bestseller by any means.

There's a contradiction of sorts here that you see more often with highly acclaimed authors.

By and large, Scott Bakker's first three books are very popular on this board, but also on several other SFF forums ( like sffworld, Chronicles).

His books are available in Canada, the US and the UK. And it looks like The Great Ordeal will be published in July/August in both the US and the UK ( the Uk publisher first had March 2008 up as their date but have now shifted to August; Overlook the Us publisher have been saying July/August for quite some time).

However I have not heard a whole lot about translations in other languages, outside maybe two countries. Plus the books are not showing up even on bestseller lists for Fantasy and SFF books either.

And if you browse a bit farther afield on the net you'll see that Bakker is not very well known at all. And Overlook, his US publisher, actually only has a small sff output, nothing compared to the publishers that publish the big Fantasy authors. So very little in the way of marketing as well.

I think Bakker has a decent web presence through word of mouth, but is actually not well known at all in the real world. If I had to guess I'd say his sales were midlist at best.

[Happy Ent]

However I have not heard a whole lot about translations in other languages, outside maybe two countries.

I only know of the German translation. The review quoted there says "Deserves a place in the eternal Valhalla of Fantasy" (mainstream newspaper Bild am Sonntag) and calls RSB a "shooting star".

Volume 2 appears as well, so the 1st volume cannot have tanked.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

It certainly was translated in Poland:

http://www.literatura.gildia.pl/tworcy/r_s...y_nas_poprzedza

http://www.literatura.gildia.pl/tworcy/r_s...wojownik_prorok

http://www.literatura.gildia.pl/tworcy/r_s...sl_tysiackrotna

AFAIK there is also French translation

[Guarneri]

Seems like he's mainly popular on the internet and by word of mouth, ay. Hopefully in time he gets the success that he deserves. Having intelligent fantasy be up there in popularity with the mindless trash would renew my faith in civilization.

[Errant Bard]

AFAIK there is also French translation

Yes, The Darkness That Comes Before has been retitled Autrefois Les Ténèbres in france, which isn't really an accurate translation, but the book still got glowing reviews, and apparently sold well.

As a rule, if a fantasy book gets good hype on the net, it'll soon be published in France. We got Lynch or Abercrombie something like 6 month after the english release, for example. No Hal Duncan, Patrick Rothfuss, Brandon Sanderson yet, but it's only a matter of time, most authors get translated after a time, without hype to push them.

Otherwise, back in 2004 Scott Bakker announced the translations in the works in a post on the three seas forum:

Russia: TDTCB, 2005

Poland: TDTCB, 2005

Germany: TDTCB, TWP, TTT, starting 2005

France: TDTCB, 2005

Spain & Latin America, TDTCB, 2005

Seems like a good international diffusion for a first novel.

[kuenjato]

As long as it sells enough so Scott can continue writing & live in comfort to facillitate quality writing, who cares?

There were lots of bestselling authors in the 19th and 20th centuries that virtually no one reads today. They were the Goodkinds and Jordans of their day, the Dan Browns and Danielle Steels.

Only literature tends to survive a few decades past publication.

Of the current crop of fantasy writers, Bakker and GRRM are assured their place in 'Valhalla', because of sheer quality. I can't think of many others, Lynch perhaps if his series gets deeper and more mature.

All IMO, of course. Jordan and Goodkind may be big sellers, but comparing their respective sagas to Prince of Nothing is like comparing Longarm to Cormac McCarthy, Narnia to Barney.

[Lies And Perfidy]

Has anyone else found it difficult to word-of-mouth PoN? I spread ASOIAF among my friends like a case of herpes in a freshman dorm, but it seems a lot more difficult to get people to start on Darkness. I think it's cause I feel pretentious whenever I gush about it - not that I think the books are pretentious, but that I can't communicate what's great about them effectively, if that makes sense.

[Guarneri]

The word "philosophy" will automatically turn a lot of people off, I've found.

[A wilding]

To briefly threadjack.

I'm curious as to how anyone can think of Shae as "happy". Satisfied at pulling off some kind of ambition? Yes. But I don't think we ever see her being genuinly *happy*.

To quibble, I would class Shae as a mistress rather than a whore, at least in ACoK and ASoS. But my central point is that we don’t see her as in any way uncomfortable, unhappy or feeling self disgust with the idea of sex with Tyrion in return for the perks of being his mistress. (Though in her case, we do see her via Tyrion from whom she would be careful to hide it.) Her discontent comes from his failure to deliver on his side of the deal.

[Maithanet]

I just finished the Prince of Nothing yesterday, and found the ending relatively interesting but at the same time somewhat underwhelming. I had helped sell myself on this series on the fact that it was a FINISHED trilogy, which is true...to a certain extent. But honestly, it doesn't really feel that much more finished than WOT was at the end of book 3.

Regardless, the thing I most disliked about the books Kellhus' character was good at EVERYTHING. If the author wanted to create someone who is incredibly charismatic, full of guile and ambition, capable of capturing the hearts of all around, that's fine. Kellhus does it to a relatively unrealistic sense, but hey, it's fantasy. But it irritates me when he is also a warrior beyond reproach (he easily defeats Cniuar who dedicated his whole life to fighting, and he bests Sarcellus the skin-spy, who can easily be described as superhuman). In addition to this, he is also so smart and talented that he can learn languages in only days, master sorcery in a matter of a few months, have extrasensory skills that he has never before tested (finding water in the desert, knowing he is one of the Few).

I honestly cannot come up with a single example of anything that he is merely average at. Anything at all. This bothers me, as a reader. Now, I know it's fantasy, and he is definitely a fantastical character. However, it seems that the Dunyain are human, though that remains to be totally seen. If it turns out he is part of some rare superhuman race, then I suppose my criticism(?) would be rescinded. But I don't like the current explanation, which is that selective breeding and training have led to the Dunyain being essentially better than regular people in ALL THINGS.

[Errant Bard]

I honestly cannot come up with a single example of anything that he is merely average at.

Emotions, and truly, him being better at everything but that is the pivotal point of the book, in my opinion.

[kuenjato]

Why should Kellhus be average? He was selected through a rigorous process (an understatement) and is conditioned to be both more than and less than human. I actually found Kellhus' arc through the series vastly improved with a re-read. As a trained sociopath, he struggles in TWP to assimilate emotions. He makes mistakes -- particularly, I think, in alienating Akka (the future books will show if this is correct or not). He takes dangerous chances, especially with Cnaiur... if C hadn't noted the discrepancy of Sarcellus at the climax of TWP, Kellhus would remain swingin' with Serwe rather than a God-figure for the three seas.

I'm sure Bakker could have created some outward flaws, like WOT's Rand, but considering he obviously wanted to explore Nietzche's controversial "superman" in actuality, giving Kellhus a wound that doesn't heal or emotions that don't fit (as a sociopath) would seem rather cheap to the theme. That said, I'm sure Kellhus will face some serious opposition from the Consult, and (perhaps) suffer the consequences of his actions.

[Shryke]

Not to mention the fact that he may or may not be going nuts. Or something. I mean, the No-God was apparently talking to him inside his head.

[Werthead]

I think Bakker has a decent web presence through word of mouth, but is actually not well known at all in the real world. If I had to guess I'd say his sales were midlist at best.

The head of Orbit has stated that Orbit are "Very happy," with Bakker's performance in the UK and snapped up The Aspect-Emperor ASAP once it was offered to them (although they passed on Neuropath and wouldn't say why). How that works in terms of raw sales, I'm not sure.

[Lies And Perfidy]

I think Kuenjato hit the nail on the head regarding Kellhus - he is meant to be an example of one of the furthest lengths human beings can go to to achieve victory in a struggle. And it works, but the price is so very high - even for an extraordinary man like Kellhus. The Mandate catechism "Though you lose your soul, you gain the world" refers to the damnation of sorcerers by Inrithi law, but I think it applies just as well to the Dunyain. By the end of TTT Kellhus is falling prey to emotion, and I think it's going to undo him in the end. We'll see what's going on 20 years later.

[Happy Ent]

I think Kuenjato hit the nail on the head regarding Kellhus - he is meant to be an example of one of the furthest lengths human beings can go to to achieve victory in a struggle.

I think it's more.

First, Kellhus is Dunyain. That should make him superiour to every worldborn, no matter their talents. A better fighter than Cnaiür, and a better thinker than Drusas Achamian. This is no error from Bakker, it's the whole idea: to see what mankind could be, given a couple of thousands years of highly selective breeding. Think what we can do with wolves (poodles!), or, if you subscribe to the hereditarian hypothesis, think Ashkenazi Jew IQ, but amplify the effects. We are helpless besides them, their feats are physically impossible for us, but not much more than running a marathon in just over 2 hours or solving Poincaré's Conjecture—and these things have been accomplished by humans. Then add Ishuäl's training. The Dunyain can do things no other human can do because of their genes and their inhuman conditioning. It stretches believability, but just barely.

(For example, I marvel at, say, the intellectual feats of Einstein or Bohr or Perelman or Tao, being just clever and well-read enough to appreciate these results, and find them just as humanly impossible—I couldn't do stuff like that in a thousand years. But these people do exist, homo sapiens does produce freaks even without much determined, selective breeding.)

But that would not make Kellhus unique. Dunyain monks are a dime a dozen in Ishüal, Moënghus can do everything Kellhus can do in that area.

Kellhus is even more than that. He is the Messiah, the Warrior-Prophet of Judaism. And the Son of God, the Messiah of Christianity. He is the Chosen One, the scion of an line of kings. That's why (apart from all the cool things he can do as a Dunyain) he also channels the Outside.

That's who Bakker wants to tell us about: Einstein and Jesse Owens and Christ all rolled up into one, schooled at the MIT and West Point-from-Hell since he was a toddler. For that ambition, I don't think Kellhus is overblown.

[Guest]

I also totally except the explanation for Kellhus and his crazy skill. As stated yes, this is fantasy, so the rules should be different, but I think that makes it more acceptable for someone of this nature. But I think Bakker creates a more than plausible explanation within his story for how someone like Kellhus can come to be.

Speaking of Dunyain, can someone explain the Cnaiur/Moenghus relationship to me? Obviously Cnaiur has been suppressing his gay feelings for a lifetime, but back when they were "together" did Moenghus like this or was he just doing it out of some Dunyain manipulation and if so, damn, that's a commitment to the "shortest way" if I've ever heard one. That must have been a tough conclusion to the probability trance.

[Quijote Light]

I also totally except the explanation for Kellhus and his crazy skill. As stated yes, this is fantasy, so the rules should be different, but I think that makes it more acceptable for someone of this nature. But I think Bakker creates a more than plausible explanation within his story for how someone like Kellhus can come to be.

Speaking of Dunyain, can someone explain the Cnaiur/Moenghus relationship to me? Obviously Cnaiur has been suppressing his gay feelings for a lifetime, but back when they were "together" did Moenghus like this or was he just doing it out of some Dunyain manipulation and if so, damn, that's a commitment to the "shortest way" if I've ever heard one. That must have been a tough conclusion to the probability trance.

Not, really. Moenghus would have seen it as just an act. It would have borne no significance to him beyond that it would have made manipulation of his circumstances easier. For some reason, I don't think there was any physical act involved. I think he just manipulated Cnaiur into falling in love with him.