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BAKKER VI: Death comes swirling down


Happy Ent

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Not, really. Moenghus would have seen it as just an act. It would have borne no significance to him beyond that it would have made manipulation of his circumstances easier. For some reason, I don't think there was any physical act involved. I think he just manipulated Cnaiur into falling in love with him.

From a re-read, I feel it is heavily implied that there was a physical relationship. Particularly Cnaiur's first dream sequence, and the underlying theme of development -- he brutalizes Serwe to both prove he's hetro and to distract how Kellhus resembles Moenghus, for example.

Plus, Cnaiur doesn't strike me as one to moon about unrequeted love.

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From a re-read, I feel it is heavily implied that there was a physical relationship. Particularly Cnaiur's first dream sequence, and the underlying theme of development -- he brutalizes Serwe to both prove he's hetro and to distract how Kellhus resembles Moenghus, for example.

Plus, Cnaiur doesn't strike me as one to moon about unrequeted love.

It could still be physical and all be a manipulation by Moenghus. Think about Serwe and Kellhus.
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It could still be physical and all be a manipulation by Moenghus. Think about Serwe and Kellhus.

That was my impression as well.

I thought it was a physical relation or at least something that implied a sort of submission on Cnaiür's part, because most of his later actions reflect his desire to prove himself aggressive, and by extension what he considers as "manly". I think one of the key part is his rape of the Earth.

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Yeah, Cnauir was obviously the submissive partner in the relationship. Look at what he's thinking when they finally meet at the end of TTT. He thinks about Moenghus holding him as a "A wrestler's clasp, firm and unyielding. The promise of surrender, of shelter in stronger arms.".

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The list above is a good (if incomplete) summary of GRRM's rosy-tainted view of prostitution and slavery, but I was even more angry at Lynch's. I have since come to realise that Lynch writes escaptist fantasy, so I have to resign myself to warrior women and self-empowered prostitutes. Pure wish-fulfillment for entertainment.

Sigh... You do realize that warrior-women are far less fantastical than most of Bakker's characters, don't you? Here is a well-documented case of one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadezhda_Durova

Note, that we know about her due to the fact that she was a gentlewoman, that Alexander I was a comparative liberal and because of her memoirs and her connection to Pushkin. Under different circumstances she would have gone unrecognized unless discovered, discreetly chucked out of the army and then the whole embarrassing affair would have been hushed down. And with how many that happened we can never know. That's why I find all those arguments about Lyanna, Asha and Brienne so amusing, BTW.

You seem to think that admitting that warrior women were (with great difficulties and in secret) possible and that this one even served legally, though incognito, would mean pretending that situation of women was better than it really was. Nothing could be further from the truth. But there were at many points in history "roads not taken" that _could_ have led to better things. And of course the battle isn't won even now.

Since Lynch doesn't claim to write a historical novel, I don't really understand the criticism. Yes, explanation of his society structure and what made it possible may have been in order, but then Bakker's worldbuilding also has some noticeable inconsistencies.

Re: prostitution and slavery, it would be dishonest to deny that in many societies some form of prostitution was the only way for a low-born woman to gain wealth, power and education. Did many manage to do so? No. Did most of them lead miserable lives? Yes, of course. Were most of them forced into it since childhood? Yes. But personally, I don't think that we should take it as a given that a wealthy courtesan was necessarily unhappier than a starving, beaten down farmwife. Or that Empress Theodora would have preferred to be forced into a marriage with some poor artisan. Is it in any way apology of prostitution? No, it is indictment of societies where that was the case.

The same with slavery. It is a fact that in some societies highly-skilled people sold themselves into slavery for no other reason than because they wanted to make a career and it was the only way. Does it mean that slavery in general was not so bad or that slaves in general were treated well? Of course not.

Anyway, Bakker elevates sexism to a fundamental law, spanning species and even worlds. Even the supposedly super-rational Dunayin are sexist. So, what is he really saying? And why does he juxtapose very marginalized women (we likely never even saw the _real_ Isturya) with extremely highly-placed men endowed with supernatural powers?

They enjoy Lynch more, much like 13-year old bespectacled boys enjoy reading Ender's Game because the geek gets to beat people up and save the world.

Sorry, HE, but IMHO that's downright offensive. I could say with the same justification that people who admire Bakker's writing have a macho übermensch fetish.

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Sigh... You do realize that warrior-women are far less fantastical than most of Bakker's characters, don't you? Here is a well-documented case of one:

Very interesting. Thanks for telling me, I really like reading about such things.

But what that has to do with my alienation from Lynchworld I don't understand. In Lynchworld, warrior women are common. Nobody raises an eyebrow. Durova, accoring to the article you linked to, disuised herself as a boy. That's like Eowyn. Not strange at all. In fact, it confirms that in our world, warrior women are extremely rare. They are remarkable.

In Lynchworld they aren't. I'm bothered by that for some reason, even though I'm not bothered by dragons or people who shoot fireballs out of their nose. But I readily concede that it's my problem. It suspends my disbelief that the human psyche in Lynchworld doesn't work like it does in my world.

That's why I find all those arguments about Lyanna, Asha and Brienne so amusing, BTW.

I'm not sure which argument you're referring to. I like Lyanna and Brienne. (Asha not so much.) They don't suspend my disbelief at all. But maybe you're talking about something else.

Sorry, HE, but IMHO that's downright offensive. I could say with the same justification that people who admire Bakker's writing have an übermensch fetish.

Sure, people who read Bakker because they think reading about Kellhus is super-cool are just Goodkind-fans in disguise. They also don't get it.

Do you not think that there are readers without the refined tastes of you and me who read fantasy for wish-fulfilment? Who just want to escape our reality and find themselves in a world where nerds get to blow stuff up (Ender's Game) or become super-powerful wizards (Potter) or ageing high school teachers get to sleep with stunning young female philosophy students (every French movie I've ever seen) or young women with useless college degrees get to enchant successful businessmen who look like Hugh Grang (chick lit) or women get to fight with swords (Lynchworld)?

I'm not saying that all readers read for that reason. But some do, and I can't even fault them, I'm sure I've done the same. Regarding Bakker, I like reading about a reality that is exactly as ugly as I believe it to be. I like to see what we escaped from.

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Cnaiur rapes Conphas, and IMO the barbarian is a twisted rope of submissive/domination -- Bakker's exploration of that made him so much more than your regular ol' Karsa or Conan.

(I have to admit I'd forgotten about that scene from TTT until my re-read. Bakker somtimes makes me laugh :leaving:

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Regarding Bakker, I like reading about a reality that is exactly as ugly as I believe it to be. I like to see what we escaped from.

But that's it, isn't it. Bakker is no more "realistic" than other fantasy writers. In a "realistic" book all the main characters would have been dead and Ikurei Conphas would have been triumphant. In fact, the Ikurei family, Serwe and perhaps Nersei Proyas are the only realistic characters in the whole book. Yes, Bakker is "ugly", but that's not the same thing at all. And yes, Homer or "Song of the Nibelungs" seem downright enlightened compared to Bakker as far as participation of females in events is concerned. And that bothers me. Just as it bothers me that he elevates sexism into species and world-spanning axiom and has his supremely rational beings agree with it, too.

I also have to say that situation with the Schools and the women seems totally implausible to me. They are already ostracized and their power is directly proportionate to their numbers. They could easily double their numbers. Yet even during the Apocalypse, when no children could be born anyway, did it occur to them. And afterwards when they became despised... in RL Europe it was actually rather common for the marginalized movements - religions, heresies, etc. to court women and intially treat them better, only to drop them like a hot potato once they became more mainstream . It is not a coincidence that Christianity gained initial footholds in many countries through highly-placed women, who eventually converted their whole families and their husbands/ sons/ grandsons then Christianized the whole country. So, it would be historically feasible for the post-Apocalyptic Schools to be more accepting, as they had little to lose and much to gain.

Further, it never even occured to the Schoolmen that they could increase their numbers by keeping track of their offspring (or was it just Moenghus's Dunayin super-sperm that produced 2 magically talented children?) or breeding with the female Few?!

Re: Lynch's world, I wouldn't presume to defend it's plausibility. However, I do think that a reliable contraceptive not condemned by major religions could have radically changed human history. As well as a reliable way to confirm a child's paternity. Note that they do have all that alchemy and whatever. They do have magic. Their capabilities are so different that it is difficult to say what is plausible.

That's where most fantasy novels fail in their worldbuilding, IMHO. They fail to logically follow up on the implications of their fantastical elements on their societies. One can't just plop magic into a copy of historical events and expect it to work, IMHO.

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Well, I wouldn't call Conphas realistic character. Someone wrote that he is embodiment of western prejudices against Byzantium and it is spot-on, IMHO. Nevertheless he does come close to winning (thanks to his immunity to Kellhus' charm), and this seems realistic to me. Yes, many other characters are greater than life, but I have no problem with this. It is fantasy novel, after all. I agree that Bakkerworld is considrably more sexist than any historical society, though. Come on, did you ever hear about any historical society in which teaching a woman - any woman - to read was considered blasphemy and punished by death? I didn't. Considering such attitudes , it isn't surprising that Schools didn't want to admit women. The question is where said attitudes came from. My private crazy theory is that they are Inchoroi cultural influence (I rather like theory that Tusk was secretly created by Inchoroi), but we just will have to read on and find out (hopefully).

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I also have to say that situation with the Schools and the women seems totally implausible to me. They are already ostracized and their power is directly proportionate to their numbers.

But the Scarlet Spires control a nation. They aren't ostracized at all. They are extremely powerful.

So, it would be historically feasible for the post-Apocalyptic Schools to be more accepting, as they had little to lose and much to gain.

I think you have a good point. Medieval Europe had a "female version" of the Church hierarchy (strictly separate, and forever prevented from even speaking in service, let alone become priests, cardinals, or popes). On the other hand... if a nun could have ever become a Pope (because, we may fantasize, popeness would be bestowed on merits, and female clerics might then be just as eligible), would the patriarchy have been as accepting of nuns? After all, accepting a female branch of the church was "for free" and not a threat. Accepting female sorcerers might be a threat because they might be just as good as males. In the latter case, the desire for the ruling group (here, men) to prevent another group (here, women) from entering a meritocratic game is completely in-line with our understanding of human nature. Groups exist to keep others out. And many, may marginalised groups are just as careful about whom they admit as those groups who can actually afford it.

‘The only people we hate more than the Romans are the … Judean People's Front.’

P.F.J.: ‘Yeah...’

JUDITH: ‘Splitters.’

P.F.J.: ‘Splitters...’

FRANCIS: ‘And the Judean Popular People's Front.’

P.F.J.: ‘Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters...’

LORETTA: ‘And the People's Front of Judea.’

P.F.J.: ‘Yeah. Splitters. Splitters...’

REG: ‘What?’

LORETTA: ‘The People's Front of Judea. Splitters.’

REG: ‘We're the People's Front of Judea!’

LORETTA: ‘Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.’

REG: ‘People's Front!’

FRANCIS: ‘Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?’

REG: ‘He's over there.’

P.F.J.: ‘Splitter!’

Further, it never even occured to the Schoolmen that they could increase their numbers by keeping track of their offspring (or was it just Moenghus's Dunayin super-sperm that produced 2 magically talented children?) or breeding with the female Few?!

Ah, good question. So far we have no indication that Fewness should be hereditary, apart from the Anasurimbors. What's up with that? We don't know. Anasurimbor Celmemonas (who dies in Seswatha's arms in front of a Dragon) was not of the Few, and neither was the other one (who wields the Heron spear). I don't think that other sorcerers suspect a hereditary component.

Re: Lynch's world, I wouldn't presume to defend it's plausibility. However, I do think that a reliable contraceptive not condemned by major religions could have radically changed human history. As well as a reliable way to confirm a child's paternity.

Absolutely. I'd love to read something about that. It'd be an obvious topic for magic, and the effects on society would be enormous—just look at our society.

Doesn't have much to do with warrior women, however. That's more a question of (1) gestation periods, (2) energy investment into reproduction, and possibly (3) body mass index. (Possibly muscle building, but I'm prepared to accept ninja-style fantasy warriors that rely on agility rather than strength.) However, the crossbow should have been the great equaliser in warfare: it's not much less effective in the hands of an average woman than in the hands of an average man (compared to melee weapons or a longbow). Yet we have never seen any great companies of crossbow-armed women, surely because women have never been expendable.

But contraceptives and fatherhood-magic would be great things to explore. Note that Bakkerworld has the former (Esmi owns such a gadget), but they seem to be hard to come by.

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Well, I wouldn't call Conphas realistic character. Someone wrote that he is embodiment of western prejudices against Byzantium and it is spot-on, IMHO.

Well, I saw him more as a typical representative of an intelligent and cunning political figure from Antiquity. There were a lot of guys like him around before and outside Byzantium, although he is unusually gifted. Still, unlike Cnaiur, Kelhus, Akka, etc. he is possible from RL point of view.

I agree that Bakkerworld is considrably more sexist than any historical society, though. Come on, did you ever hear about any historical society in which teaching a woman - any woman - to read was considered blasphemy and punished by death? I didn't.

Duh, I missed that little tidbit. That's something indeed. See, that's why I am so irritated by insinuations that people who are bothered by Bakker's worldbuilding or downright dislike it are escapists obsessed with wish-fulfillment and pink unicorns . Yes, I can stomach RL history and like to read about it even though we women unquestionably were terribly oppressed throughout it and haven't really gained equality even now.

But I really don't see why we should accept as "realistic" and "inevitable" that even if some absolutely world-changing stuff (like magic, another intelligent species and aliens) was introduced into human development, things for us would have been necessarily the same, or like in PoN's case even worse. Particularly if no plausible reasons for that are offered.

Considering such attitudes , it isn't surprising that Schools didn't want to admit women. The question is where said attitudes came from. My private crazy theory is that they are Inchoroi cultural influence (I rather like theory that Tusk was secretly created by Inchoroi), but we just will have to read on and find out (hopefully).

And why on earth did Inchoroi kill all non-Men females while leaving the males alive and immortal to kick their ass? Shouldn't any rational beings have tried to kill or at least disable the warlike part of the population or make all population sterile in a less noticeable way to delay/forestall revenge and get an opportunity to infect humans as well? Very symptomatic for PoN, but doesn't seem to make much sense, IMHO.

HE:

Female sorcerors could have been kept inferior, no problem. Just as the nuns were. After all, the world around them would have still remained terribly sexist, so women wouldn't be able to occupy any positions in the School that required dealing with the outside world - as IIRC all administrative positions did. Additionally, they could have been barred from certain advanced training, etc. But unlike with nuns, benefits of inclusion would have been very tangible, as it would have significantly increased raw magical power of the School, allowed them to be more aggressive while leaving their homebase fully defended, etc.

And regarding genetic component - the Few are rare. If Moenghus having _2_ magical children by different mothers has nothing to do with genetics, than it will just take random deus ex machina to a new level of absurd. And if it does have a genetic component, then the Schoolmen would have been utter morons not to notice it earlier.

Re: warrior women, yet again that one was a good soldier in light cavalry. Not an all-conquering warrior princess, but she had good service records, participated in many battles and wasn't struggling or anything. So, it could be done. I believe that a major reason for oppression of women in RL was and is male desire to be certain of paternity of their children. Take that away, make it possible to be certain in some way without cloistering and guarding the woman and things could be very different. That would be the most feasible "point of divergence" for the speculative worlds with more empowered women.

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Still, unlike Cnaiur, Kelhus, Akka, etc. he is possible from RL point of view.

Akka seems quite possible to me, except magical talent, of course. There is nothing particalurły over-the-top about him, as opposed to real freaky guys like Cnaiur and Conphas.

Duh, I missed that little tidbit. That's something indeed.

It is interesting that it is exactly the situation we see in my favorite Polish fantasy book of several last years:

http://www.runa.pl/ksiazki/26-WODY-GLEBOKIE-JAK-NIEBO.html

It is, though, written by a woman, and from somewhat feminist position. Reading is in her world explicitly forbidden for women in order to stop them from learning magic and so keep them in line.

I also rather doubt that schools would be able to overcome so deeply ingrained cultural conditioning. It takes someone like Kellhus to change that and even this only maybe.

And why on earth did Inchoroi kill all non-Men females while leaving the males alive and immortal to kick their ass? Shouldn't any rational beings have tried to kill or at least disable the warlike part of the population or make all population sterile in a less noticeable way to delay/forestall revenge and get an opportunity to infect humans as well? Very symptomatic for PoN, but doesn't seem to make much sense, IMHO.

That is exactly my point. All Inchoroi seem to be male and the same is true about skin-spies. Tere are female Sranc, since they have to be bred natural way, but they look exactly like males. Inchoroi seem to be inherently opposed to the idea of female sex for some reason. But it is of course only my crazy theory and there is no telling where Bakker will go with it. (And no, I wouldn't call Inchoroi rational. Inteligent, sure, but rational? No way.)

It is also not only thing in which we are unable to second-guess Bakker's intentions. We didn't see any witches or female Dunyain, and Bakker said they will show up in the second series. This will change noticeably balance od power between genders. Bakker mentioned also that some illegal magic-users know gnosis and therefore may be very powerful indeed. It is also possible that Kellhus will allow schooling of sorceresses, though the resistance agianst this would surely be very strong.

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And regarding genetic component - the Few are rare. If Moenghus having _2_ magical children by different mothers has nothing to do with genetics, than it will just take random deus ex machina to a new level of absurd. And if it does have a genetic component, then the Schoolmen would have been utter morons not to notice it earlier.

Exactly. I haven't seen this discussed before, neither here on the Three Seas forum. It's an obvious conundrum. Are all the Dunyain of the Few? Or only the branch of House Anasurimbor? (And if there is a branch, after 2000 years either all the Dunyain must have some Anasurimbor blood in them, or none. Else they must have kept just 3 Dunyain as a separate breeding population alive all the time, as an isolated experiment. Sounds mighty strange.)

Does the Dunyain conditioning heighten your abilities so much that Fewness become manifest? Would Celmemonas have been of the Few, had he just received some weird monk-training and cut some brains open in his youth?

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Is the society in this world sexist? Yes. Does this level of sexism in society mirror the real world? Only partially. It takes it to some extreme and it shifts the places and areas of society where the sexism occurred. Is this thereby a bad thing or somehow lessen the work? To answer this, I would say no. In some ways, like Happy Ent, I would much prefer to see every now and then a darker world that showed some of the extremities of our world over something that offered itself as a more romantic escapist view. Yes in our world, women were allowed to read if they were one of the few (literacy was rare just as much for male nobility as it was for female nobility), but this is also a different society with a different religion. But just a look at 2 Timothy and the other Pastoral epistles and you can read about women being subservient to their husbands and not being permitted to speak in church. Is a religion that prohibited female literacy then all that too far fetched? I would say, no it is not. This shows the power that religion can have as a tool in the oppression of people! Also keep in mind that we are not given a look into the entirety of Three Seas Society, but are only given a small window of a view in terms of a wartime crusades. And with all the men away at war, what would people expect but powerful women left in charge of the manors and estates?

That said, I do not think that these books are necessarily meant to reflect the reality of history, but the violent reality of the historical and fictional epic story like the Iliad, the Song of Roland, the Niebelungen, Beowulf, or Le Morte d'Arthur. It is not supposed to be a mirror image of reality, but a bleak one that shows some of the negative possibilities of reality. For some reason, this seems to disturb some readers who want romantic fantasy where it shows "outcasts and minorities overcoming adversity and achieving equality." Why do people want a repetition of these cliches? Do they really just want a regurgitation of the same stories over and over again? Must every story or society have a Brienne? Yes, warrior women like Joan of Arc existed, but they were exceptions, and while I realize that this is often what fantasy is about - the exceptions - having every fantasy being about these exceptional warrior women would turn it passé.

On the heredity of the Few: I was actually under the impression that the Mandate Schoolmen kept tabs on the families which typically had the Few from Akka's flashback of his own perspective of recruitment. Also it may be possible that the method of swearing on the mummified heart of Seswatha may have adverse reactions on females. We just do not know. Also keep in mind that heredity is not necessarily something that was terribly well known back in the day. Yeah, they knew how to breed dogs, but if people really cared about they bred each other, the European nobility would not have been as screwed up as it was even as late as the early 20th century. And often a person's appearance was strongly associated with one's purity, essence, or spirituality by God. Also it should be kept in mind that the Mandate Schoolmen are like the priesthood in that they are supposed to be celibate as a means to ensure that their dedication to the Mandate's um...mandate comes first over family. So a breeding program for the Mandate is not really an option. But the island and maybe Conriya presumably contains many Mandate rejects or those with latent or recessive "Few genes" from which to pull their recruitment from.

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Must every story or society have a Brienne?

Oh, I like Brienne. In all senses of the word. I also like her role qua feminism: she shows us that Westeros is a sexist world, and that sexism is wrong in extrapolating a correct observation about the average of a group (here: women don't fight well) to a law for the group (here: women shouldn't fight). It's the ought-from-is fallacy. Esmi has very much the same role, but her battlefield is politics and power, instead of hitting people with a sword.

So I think Esmi (smartest world-born human, yet a woman) and Brienne (best warrior, yet a woman) are good and useful characters, and I like reading about them. It's important that they are women, they make the same point that Eowyn makes.

I'd rather say: must every story have a Drakasha Zamira?

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I'd rather say: must every story have a Drakasha Zamira?

Not every story, sure, but characters who are mothers and play other roles in their lives as well, are still so rare. Perhaps, it could have been portrayed a bit more subtly and perhaps the captain of a pirate ship is a bit extreme, but the idea that a captain of a ship can also be a mother and has the capacity for so different roles is pretty interesting.

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Not every story, sure, but characters who are mothers and play other roles in their lives as well, are still so rare. Perhaps, it could have been portrayed a bit more subtly and perhaps the captain of a pirate ship is a bit extreme, but the idea that a captain of a ship can also be a mother and has the capacity for so different roles is pretty interesting.

And my point is defeated, because Drakasha actually is remarkable (in Lynchworld) for bringing her children to work.

I should have taken one of the other ubiquitous warrior women as an example. The wicked sisters, or the captain of the Archon's guard, or the woman who get half her body eroded, or Jean Tannen's sidekick. But I can't remember any of their names.

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Is the society in this world sexist? Yes. Does this level of sexism in society mirror the real world? Only partially. It takes it to some extreme and it shifts the places and areas of society where the sexism occurred.

I would argue it doesn't take if far enough at all in general. Remember, in our world if a child is born a girl it has good chances to be killed by her parents or grandparents (India, China for example) or mutilated by her parents or village elders (Africa, Arabia). Women not allowed to learn or even leave the house alone? Happens even today, you just have to go to some of the more religious fundamentalistic regions of our earth.

Similar things happend in our Western Society not so long ago. Only 50 years ago a husband could forbid his wife to take a job or simply had to call the employer and tell him he no longer wants his wife to work. Completely legal.

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Cnaiur rapes Conphas, and IMO the barbarian is a twisted rope of submissive/domination -- Bakker's exploration of that made him so much more than your regular ol' Karsa or Conan.

Did this really happen? If so, how did I miss this? I thought that scene with Conphas in Cnaiur's captivity, Cnaiur just smacked him around a bit to rob him of his aura of status.

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