BAKKER VI: Death comes swirling down

[Shryke]

I never assumed that those Dunyain who received Moenghus' dream message were of the Few themselves. Certainly not necessarily. The recipients of the dream need not have been sorcerers. I got the impression that those who received them where taken aback by them. Didnt'those who did receive the dreams kill themselves because this was outside interference?

I also thought the Dunyain were not aware of or at least frowned upon sorcery.

The question of whether or not there are other Dunyain who are among The Few is interesting of course, as we expect to encounter the Dunyain later on in the Aspect Emperor series given that Achamian has set out to find them. The Dunyain themselves are very powerful in their own way, if you add to that a Dunyain who is of The Few you get a powerhouse.

The Dunyain are aware of sorcery. In that same way that you or I are aware of sorcery (ie - we understand the idea of it, but think it's complete and utter bullshit. It's fake.) So, yes, they were taken aback, in that "WTF, this sort of shit can't happen, can it????" kind of way. Then they offed themselves to remove the taint of outside interference.

And from what I remember of Akka talking about sending messages through dreams, it only works from Sorceror to Sorceror.

[Calibandar]

Would be helpful if you have a quote for that that proves it, because from what I recall, receiving a dream does not require you to be a sorcerer per se. If that is mentioned somewhere explicitly I'd like to see it. It strikes me that the sending of one is a magical act, but that it is very possible that the recipient is merely subject to it. In addition, the response of the Dunyain, being shocked by the receiving of this dream from someone else, indicates to me that it is not common among them, or has possibly never happened before.

[Shryke]

Would be helpful if you have a quote for that that proves it, because from what I recall, receiving a dream does not require you to be a sorcerer per se. If that is mentioned somewhere explicitly I'd like to see it. It strikes me that the sending of one is a magical act, but that it is very possible that the recipient is merely subject to it.

I'll look it up, lemme see. There's a bunch of stuff about one of the recipients needing to be something and blah blah blah. I'll check. I think it's at the start of either TTT or TWP.

In addition, the response of the Dunyain, being shocked by the receiving of this dream from someone else, indicates to me that it is not common among them, or has possibly never happened before.

Yes. But that's expected considering the Dunyain don't believe in sorcery. They think it's superstitious non-sense.

[Shryke]

I may be wrong actually, the Appendix in TTT only says that the one being talked to must be asleep and that said person must also be a in location that the caller has previously been.

EDIT: Ah, I've got it now. Moenghus talked to those Dunyain he knew. As Kellhus says in TTT "to send dreams to those Dunyain you knew before your exile."

[Ran]

The Imperial Saik provides the Nansur emperors swift communication by having a Caller who travels with the emperor and so on, who communicates to a Compass who is a sorcerer known to the Caller. So, at least, it seems that in Anagogic magic such as the Saik practices requires communication to go from one sorcerer to another, and that they need to be known to one another.

Kellhus actually says the opposite of what's said above here -- Moënghus didn't send it to everyone, he sent it to those Dunyain that he had known ("... that this was how you were able to reach out to Ishuäl, to send dreams to those Dûnyain you knew before your exile"), so clearly, the Psûkhe requires familarity as at least one necessary element for sorcerous communication.

I don't know if those Dûnyain who received the dream were literally of the Few, but I suspect those who received it had the potential to be of the Few with training. In fact, I think it's been suggested that one effect of the Dûnyain breeding program is that, by now, they're all pretty much capable of being among the Few once trained. It may be that it is sufficient to be sorcerously sensitive to be able to receive the dreams, and that one doesn't actually have to be trained as a sorcerer.

[Shryke]

Well, the Emperor has a sorcerer to do the communicating because the person being called TO must be in a predetermined location.

[lokisnow]

and has anyone ever figured out why the line of anasurimbor's kept that surname? it seems to make no sense considering the dunyain's philosophies. I'd sort of expect them all to have very generic similar names. I suppose we don't know how many of the Dunyain call themselve Anasurimbor Wholabunchasyllablesandanumlautortwo And yeah after the amount of time, considering the anasurimbor line was mingling in a relatively small community I imagine they're all related to each other within four or five generations, meaning most of the population is probably related to that bastard child / last survivor of Ishual, which if there is a genetic component would indicate they are most likely all part of the Few. This is presuming I'm recalling correctly and the Anasurimbors were part of the few but not necessarily sorcerers. :-p

but I really want to know more about the non-men. how many are left around, was it an extremely rare thing for kellhus to run into one of them and what's their relationship with the consult at this point? the non-man was also surprised to hear kellhus speaking a dead language like kunyiuric I think (something else the dunyain preserved) and I noticed in the back of the appendix there's mention of a text that predates the holy book (the horn? or something) which has never been translated... that sounds like a job for superman.

[Tears of Lys]

I'm kicking myself for doing it, but I started rereading TDTCB I never thought I would, but the damn books stick with you something fierce.

Rereading the prologue is fascinating. That taste of the non-men we get, in light of the information in the appendices of TTT is especially fascinating, I hadn't noticed before how similar to the prologue of AGOT the prologue is.

Don't kick yourself! I didn't truly appreciate the series until I reread it... and reread it... and reread it. The more I read it, the more I enjoy it. And yes, they do stick with you.

ETA: And the the text that's not yet been translated, are you talking about the Tusk? I know Sejenus reinterpreted the Tusk, but AFAIK, it's not been totally translated yet. And I really do mistrust that damn thing for some reason.

[Happy Ent]

OK, let’s try different schools of magic and other mind tricks, trying to convince the moderators to not close this thread. I’d like to find out which of these things really work. Gnosis, Dûnyain neurolinguistic programming, Psûkhe, etc.

I’ll start with Jedi mind trick.

“You don’t need to close this thread. This is not the thread you’re looking for.â€

[lokisnow]

I've read all three, and in light of the imminent release of Judging Eye, picked up TDTCB at barnes and noble the other day waiting for a movie to start at the theatre and reread the prologue. then I went and bought a used HC for 3 bucks from amazon, much cheaper than buying a new $15 TP from B&N. No, in the back of TDTCB when describing the lineage of languages Bakkar mentions a tongue, thought to be the original tongue of the nonmen (and therefore Earwa?) which has a book that predates the tusk which has never been translated.

so feel free to spoil anything not related to Judging Eye, I've pretty much read this thread through over it's life. :-P

and I agree this thread needs to stay open for non-Judging Eye spoilers and discussion of the first three Prince of Nothing books.

[El Chico]

Where does it imply that the Dunyain all have the potential to become the Few? I need to re-read the series again...it improves each time.

[Deluge]

FUCK! Apparently I forgot to re-open my P.O. box here, so it got forwarded to Michigan yesterday. Still beats waiting for it to come out in the U.S., though.

[Ran]

I take it simply from the fact that Moënghus and Kellhus grasp sorcery very readily, and that the Dûnyain that Moënghus reaches may well have the sensitivies of the Few to be able to receive his dream. So far as we know, communication spells requires sorcerers at both ends, which means that it _may_ be enough for the person receiving the communication to be a sensitive, whereas we've no evidence that a person who isn't sensitive can receive magical communications.

Given how inbred the Dûnyain must be, if the first two we meet in any detail are sensitive to sorcery, it doesn't seem unlikely that most of the others are as well. Alternatively, Dûnyain are not "naturally" sensitive, but their overwhelming intellect allows them to adapt themselves to sensitivity.

Anyways, yeah. I think the Dûnyain who received the dream were sensitives, or alternatively that all Dûnyain have the unique ability of becoming sensitives. But I think its' the former, myself -- if sensitivity is a genetic trait, which I expect it is, then the Dûnyain are sufficiently inbred that most of them are probably sensitive.

[AverageGuy]

So what's a good name for Baker VII?

[Finn]

So what's a good name for Baker VII?

A Bakker's Half-Dozen? With a few umlauts thrown in . . .

[Finn]

So what's a good name for Baker VII?

Black Seed and Barbarian Buggery? With a few umlauts thrown in . . .

[Calibandar]

Ran, Shryke

I've started the Judging Eye and in the "What has gone before" section my opinion about the Dunyain who received the dream from Moenghus not needing to be sorceres themselves is confirmed here, in fact it's stated stronger here.

It states:

Knowing only that Moenghus dwelt in a distant city called Shimeh, the Dunyain dispatched Kellhus on an arduous journey through lands long abandoned by Men-sent him to kill his father.

But Moenghus knew the world in ways his cloistered brethren could not. He knew well the revelations that awaited his son, for they had been his own revelations thirty years previous. He knew that Kellhus would discover sorcery, whose existence the forefathers of the Dunyain had suppressed.

So, the Dunyain were not aware of sorcery, which explains further why they were so taken aback by the dream sent to them by Moenghus. They do not practice it, even if there may be those among them with the talent for the Few. Knowledge of sorcery itself is unknown to the Dunyain, Moenghus only learned about it as he left Ishual and the forefathers of the Dunyain suppressed all knowledge of it.

[Chirios]

"She could see Good and Evil... How good men shined brighter than good women."

^Is Bakker serious? Is Mimara cursed or is he actually saying that men are intrisically, theologically, and personally, better than women?

[Calibandar]

Yes, I think he is saying that in the world of Earwa ( not Earth), that is true.