BAKKER VI: Death comes swirling down

[Ran]

I'm past the halfway mark of the second book. I'll certainly continue, but I suppose the constant hype made me expect something more than what I've gotten to date. It's good stuff. Very good stuff, in parts. But it's not quite grabbing my imagination.

[Happy Ent]

Yeah, I recall reading it at Semana Negra's site.

OK, I give up. Link, please?

[Ran]

Hereis Dylan's rough translation of the original report. The original can be found in this PDF.

[Larry.]

Here's my translation, since I don't think you read/speak Spanish. That's what Ran and I were talking about.

[Larry.]

Ha! I see I was a few seconds late in responding

[Ran]

So, I've finished. It's certainly engrossing, in its way, but the story really and truly does hang very much on Achamian. I think Kellhus became somewhat more interesting in his conversation with Möenghus, when he made it plain that he believes he has contact with the Outside, which throws some of the Dûnyain ultra-rationality for a bit of a loop, but there's still something lacking there.

Or maybe not so much lacking, as keeping me at arm's distance. Kellhus barely had any POVs in this book, which makes him a far less intimate character than Esminet, Achamian, Cnaiür, or even Conphas.

In the end, this is a book I can respect and even admire in certain ways, but I can't find myself loving it. It's a bit too distant.

As an aside, I like good battle scenes, but Shimesh just wasn't that exciting to me. I skimmed much of it, mainly making note of when various Lords of the Holy War bought it. It could easily have been chopped down to half its length, I think, and probably would have benefitted from it -- such unceasing spectacle tends to desensitize, and the general lack of a close perspective makes them less visceral than they could be. It feels more like somewhat dramatized history, which may be the point.

Oh, and a major problem with Kellhus being the Trickster-type character that he is ... I basically skimmed all of his speeches to the faithful, because they were obviously full of lies and there was no great purpose to reading them. The buttons being pushed were already recognized and noted well before that, so seeing variations on how he could gull them and mold their beliefs to his requirements was not very worthwhile for me. There was nothing revelatory in it, in other words.

Looking to the Aspect-Emperor novels, I'm thinking the Dûnyain are going to play a part, whether through Kellhus approaching them and laying out what's going on so that they can join him, or perhaps through the Consult finding some way to usurp Möenghus's vision of the World cut off from the Outside and using that to convince the Dûnyain to join their intellect to their purposes.... In fact, I suspect it'll be the latter.

[Larry.]

From what I understand, that latter option is the more probable because of how the Dûnyain have been presented in TTT. I guess that bit near the end with the captured Skin Spy reveals something else, no?

[Ran]

Hmm ... not quite sure what you mean about the captured skin-spy. Do you mean Serwë at the end?

[Larry.]

Halfway through Ch. 16. The cages. The incisions. Compare that with the conversation around it. It's...like the end parts of NP in its parallels.

[Ran]

Oh. Haven't read NP. Though that makes sense from what little I know of it.

[Larry.]

I think, based both on having read both PoN and NP twice now over the past four years, that a lot of Bakker's thematic elements are concentrated in places like the Kellhus/Moënghus dialogue and in the one late in NP. It's not a pleasant topic to consider, that of manipulation, self-delusion, and the near-futility of resistance, but it is something that he concentrates a lot of energy and time on and I think to some degree, the story can work better/be lessened by how one deals with those thematic elements he considers to be so important. But there's even that "doubt" in the "Conditioned," as witnessed with that little revelation Kellhus gives about those hands/visions. Shall be interesting to see how that plays out later.

[Tears of Lys]

Looking to the Aspect-Emperor novels, I'm thinking the Dûnyain are going to play a part, whether through Kellhus approaching them and laying out what's going on so that they can join him, or perhaps through the Consult finding some way to usurp Möenghus's vision of the World cut off from the Outside and using that to convince the Dûnyain to join their intellect to their purposes.... In fact, I suspect it'll be the latter.

I dug up this old thread to ask a question that touches upon a part of your above post. Didn't the remaining Dunyain commit suicide so that Moenghus' contact didn't further pollute them? or was it only the ones who were contacted via dreams?

When I first read the series, I got the idea that Kellhus was the last remaining Dunyain.

Now, going back over it, I'm wondering if there are others still in Ishual.

[delete this account pls]

It was only the Dunyain contacted by Moenghus dreams that offed themselves, because they'd been 'tainted' by the outside world. Which means those Dunyain with the potential to be sorcerors I guess? You have to be a sorceror to receive messages via dreams and all that, right?

[Tears of Lys]

Yeah, I would suppose so - (the having to be one of the Few to receive dreams.) That's a good point, because i was wondering how it would work out having other Dunyain still around to challenge Kellhus AND with the potential to learn the Gnosis. This suicide pact takes care of that little plot problem.

[Shiro White]

I was wondering if anyone could answer a quick question about Moe for me. From what I gathered, Moe was supposed to be going by the name Mallahet among the Cishaurim, as he was the foreign one with the scarred arms, something we know Moe did to get across the plains. This Mallahet is supposed to be something of a powerful sorcerer based on the Grandmaster of the Imperial Saik, who seems the sort to have an idea of the strength of his old foe. I believe he says something like this:

"Mallahet is second only to Seokti in the Cishaurim. And only then because their Prophetic Law bars non-Kianene from the position of Heresiarch. Even the Cishaurim are fearful of his power!"

This seems at odds with the Moe we see at the end of TTT though, as that Moe can only do more finesse techniques of the Cishaurim, and nothing that would really seem to make them afraid of his 'power'.

Just seems weird how easy Moe fell if he was supposed to have all this might, and while the reason Kelly comes up with seems a valid thought, it seems to be at odds with the information on Mallahet given in the first book. Am I just missing something, or was there supposed to be a bit of a retcon to Moe's real strength?

[Shryke]

I was wondering if anyone could answer a quick question about Moe for me. From what I gathered, Moe was supposed to be going by the name Mallahet among the Cishaurim, as he was the foreign one with the scarred arms, something we know Moe did to get across the plains. This Mallahet is supposed to be something of a powerful sorcerer based on the Grandmaster of the Imperial Saik, who seems the sort to have an idea of the strength of his old foe. I believe he says something like this:

"Mallahet is second only to Seokti in the Cishaurim. And only then because their Prophetic Law bars non-Kianene from the position of Heresiarch. Even the Cishaurim are fearful of his power!"

This seems at odds with the Moe we see at the end of TTT though, as that Moe can only do more finesse techniques of the Cishaurim, and nothing that would really seem to make them afraid of his 'power'.

Just seems weird how easy Moe fell if he was supposed to have all this might, and while the reason Kelly comes up with seems a valid thought, it seems to be at odds with the information on Mallahet given in the first book. Am I just missing something, or was there supposed to be a bit of a retcon to Moe's real strength?

Your missing that Mallahet/Moenghus' power was more ... political then sorcerous. While not the greatest sorceror by any means, his ability to manipulate and read people allowed him to catapult himself to second-in-command of the Cishaurim. A position of significant power, regardless of how few heads he could explode with his mind.

Kellhus was a power to be reckoned with long before he learned sorcery. It's the same thing.

[delete this account pls]

It's also likely the Imperial Saik simply assumed that Mallahet was an extremely powerful sorceror due to his rank, since in all the Gnostic Schools sorcerous ability = intelligence = rank.

[Paxter]

since in all the Gnostic Schools sorcerous ability = intelligence = rank.

This is something that has always bothered me. If Akka is powerful enough to wipe out numerous members of the two most powerful anagogic schools + that demon, why is he a fairly low ranking member of the Mandate? Why isn't he on the Quorom? (sp?)

[Vercint]

This is something that has always bothered me. If Akka is powerful enough to wipe out numerous members of the two most powerful anagogic schools + that demon, why is he a fairly low ranking member of the Mandate? Why isn't he on the Quorom? (sp?)

It's never really explained, but it seems like the Quorom is the result of a seniority system, so you not only have to be intelligent and powerful with the Gnosis, you also have to be old and, presumably, wise... Also, Akka is a bit of a maverick, even in the beginning of the books, and there are some suggestions that this is part of why he is still a field agent.

[JGP]

When I first read the series, I got the idea that Kellhus was the last remaining Dunyain.

Now, going back over it, I'm wondering if there are others still in Ishual.

I got that first impression as well, until my first reread when the prologue of The Darkness gave me pause. Those cadaverous looking 'wolf people' that scaled the walls of Ishuäl were Dûnyain. Were they the progenitors of the order, or merely refugees as the prologue infers? How far removed are they, in populace [and ability] from the Dûnyain that we've come to know through Kell and his papa?

Their origins are obscure enough that Bakker can play with our expectations in any manner he might wish. But he's got to choose soon, if he hasn't already.

When the snows broke, shouts brought him to Ishuäl’s forward gate. Peering through dark embrasures, he saw a group of cadaverous men and women—refugees of the Apocalypse. Glimpsing his shadow, they cried out for food, shelter, anything, but the boy was too terrified to reply. Hardship had made them look fearsome—feral, like a wolf people.

When they began scaling the walls, he fled to the galleries. Like the Bardic Priest, they searched for him, calling out guarantees of his safety. Eventually, one of them found him cringing behind a barrel of sardines. With a voice neither tender nor harsh, he said: “We are Dûnyain, child. What reason could you have to fear us?†But the boy clutched his father’s sword, crying, “So long as men live, there are crimes!â€

The man’s eyes filled with wonder. “No child,†he said. “Only so long as men are deceived.â€

For a moment, the young Anasûrimbor could only stare at him. Then solemnly, he set aside his father’s sword and took the stranger’s hand. “I was a prince,†he mumbled.

The stranger brought him to the others, and together they celebrated their strange fortune. They cried out—not to the Gods they had repudiated—but to one another that here was evident a great correspondence of cause. Here awareness most holy could be tended. In Ishuäl, they had found shelter against the end of the world.

Still emaciated, but wearing the furs of kings, the Dûnyain chiselled the sorcerous runes from the walls and burned the Grand Vizier’s books. The jewels, the chalcedony, the silk and cloth-of-gold, they buried with the corpses of a dynasty.

And the world forgot them for two thousand years.