BAKKER VI: Death comes swirling down

[Tears of Lys]

Yeah, that's what I thought too.

We need pictures.

[Happy Ent]

Did this really happen? If so, how did I miss this? I thought that scene with Conphas in Cnaiur's captivity, Cnaiur just smacked him around a bit to rob him of his aura of status.

It's easy to miss. But re-read it: Cnaiür even wakes up next morning, not really remembering what happened, and notices that his private parts are covered in faeces (but not in so many words).

This incident, however, is not foremost an expression of Big C's sexuality. It's pure payback for the rape of the Scylvendi captives at Kiyuth. Also that incident is easy to miss. But Conphas brags about how his troops provoked the Scylvendi by buggering the Scylvendi captives in full sight of their army. An unspeakable outrage in their eyes. Conphas brags about it (because it demonstrates how perfectly he understands his enemy.)

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Oh, I like Brienne. In all senses of the word. I also like her role qua feminism: she shows us that Westeros is a sexist world, and that sexism is wrong in extrapolating a correct observation about the average of a group (here: women don't fight well) to a law for the group (here: women shouldn't fight). It's the ought-from-is fallacy. Esmi has very much the same role, but her battlefield is politics and power, instead of hitting people with a sword.

So I think Esmi (smartest world-born human, yet a woman) and Brienne (best warrior, yet a woman) are good and useful characters, and I like reading about them. It's important that they are women, they make the same point that Eowyn makes.

I'd rather say: must every story have a Drakasha Zamira?

See, I do not know who that is, but I will take your word that this is a better question to ask. But the rest of my points in my post stand.

I would argue it doesn't take if far enough at all in general. Remember, in our world if a child is born a girl it has good chances to be killed by her parents or grandparents (India, China for example) or mutilated by her parents or village elders (Africa, Arabia). Women not allowed to learn or even leave the house alone? Happens even today, you just have to go to some of the more religious fundamentalistic regions of our earth.

Similar things happend in our Western Society not so long ago. Only 50 years ago a husband could forbid his wife to take a job or simply had to call the employer and tell him he no longer wants his wife to work. Completely legal.

I suppose, but often those who opponents of Bakker's world insist that reality was never quite this bleak in terms of gender roles and society, so I was trying to maintain that view, but then say it instead shifts the places where the imbalances occur as opposed to merely mirroring reality.

[kuenjato]

Did this really happen? If so, how did I miss this? I thought that scene with Conphas in Cnaiur's captivity, Cnaiur just smacked him around a bit to rob him of his aura of status.

There is 'soil' and 'blood' on Cnaiur's groin the next day. And Conphas has a... puzzled reaction when he finally has C tied down. Plus one of his toadys gasps at C "I know what you did..."

[delete this account pls]

There is 'soil' and 'blood' on Cnaiur's groin the next day. And Conphas has a... puzzled reaction when he finally has C tied down. Plus one of his toadys gasps at C "I know what you did..."

All that and Conphas remembers the splash of Cnauir's hot seed across his back, which is really not that ambiguous.

[Shryke]

See, I do not know who that is, but I will take your word that this is a better question to ask. But the rest of my points in my post stand.

I suppose, but often those who opponents of Bakker's world insist that reality was never quite this bleak in terms of gender roles and society, so I was trying to maintain that view, but then say it instead shifts the places where the imbalances occur as opposed to merely mirroring reality.

I think it's pretty close. Women are institutionally discriminated against, but they can occasionally rise above that and seize real power the Emperor's Mother).

[Maia]

I'd like to clarify my argument:

First, what is realism to you? Is it just transposition of something that exists or existed in RL into a fictional world? In this case, certainly your basic warrior princess or pirate queen is far more realistic than Kelhus, Akka, Cnaiur, Dunayin, aliens, etc. Ok, not a princess perhaps, but a non-descript soldier under an alias or some kind of bandit. Such people existed in our history. So, for me personally it makes little sense that something that existed is termed "romantic wish-fulfillment", whereas the openly fantastical is touted as "realistic" . And while societies where women were oppressed as much as in PoN or even more certainly existed and continue to do so, it is also true that there were societies where women were treated better, sometimes much better, even if never as equals to men. It was never as uniform throughout cultures and millenia as PoN depicts.

But as regards fictional universes for me at least there is another measure of realism. That is, how consistently and plausibly the divergent (from RL history or RL natural laws) elements are integrated into world building and events. And I'd say that vast majority if not all fantasy, science fiction (even though it is supposed to be it's bread and butter) and alternative history fails there. It usually fails because authors want to include some cool elements and neglect to take logical consequences those ought to have on the setting into account, because authors want to take certain historical events and figures as inspiration and won't let logic derail them, because authors want to make a point, ditto. Normally, I am reconciled to these flaws, because they seem to be ubiquitous and the novels often clearly have other goals, which they achieve well enough to satisfy me.

What makes PoN stick out like a sore thumb to me personally in this respect, apart from undeserved (IMHO) praises of it's realism from the fans, is that "what comes before determines what comes after" is such a prominent concept of it's story, yet the implications of "what came before" on his world are treated as unconvincingly as in any number of other "speculative fiction" books, which concentrate on different things.

I mean, let's take a look:

Existence of magic, which seems to affect the social structure and development of humans very little, because in implausible, but time-honored tradition of fantasy it is used only for war, high-level communication and questioning/torture (and why they need the latter when they have Compulsion is a mystery). It never occurs to anybody to use magic for something constructive, like road-building, mining, creating harbors, etc. Talent for magic appears to be genetic, but nobody seems to have noticed that and used it to their advantage until the advent of Moenghus (sic!), although moaning about too few recruits appears to be widespread among the Schools.

Another, more long-lived humanoid race (there certainly are allusions that they were longer-lived naturally, before their debacle with the Inchoroi, in the appendices), that for no reason that I can discern appears to be as sexist as the humans. One would think that longer life-spans would make early gender specialization less necessary and less final and that their acceptance and more logical use of magic would make them want to employ as many mages as they could. They also appear to have been as obsessed with sex as humans, despite their longer life-spans and likely consequently lower fertility, but wouldn't much mingle with humans sexually or breed with human women even after their own were all killed. Even though they appear to be able to do so and produce robust and fertile hybrid offspring (like that first Anasurimbor Emperor, who lived to be 170). And of course, existence of another intelligent species on a higher level of civilization, affected human development in the books very little, comparatively speaking.

The aliens, which wanted to extinguish intelligent life on the planet and went about it in a remarkably bone-headed manner. Yes, they may or may not be rational, but they were able to create plagues, they knew about the existence of humans and they also knew which part of the Non-Men society kicked their ass the first time around. So what did they do? Killed Non-Men females, made Non-Men males immortal and desperate, thus more dangerous, and didn't do anything about humans at all, instead indulging in much more difficult and expensive creation of "weapons races". I mean, really, who would do so, when plagues and poisoning are ever so much more convenient and reliable? And it isn't like those aliens were psychologically unable to see it that way. And again, their presence and shenanigans apparently were largely irrelevant in shaping of human cultures and history. Yes, despite the Apocalypse.

I agree with whoever suggested that the Tusk was partly dictated by the Inchoroi. Particularly the story of Angeshrael, injunctions against sorcery and the call to invade and destroy the Non-Men seem to point in that direction. But when all is said and done, similar tenets can evolve without alien intervention, as we know all too well...

Oh, and BTW, how is it that Scylvendi fought for the No-God? Didn't they suffer from his effects? Or were they OK with their own lack of progeny and imminent extinction? Speaking of human nature and realism...

The Dunayin. Really, they are impossible, all the more so because they are supposed to have evolved from the garden-variety humans. They stick with an esoteric and very demanding goal for millenia, they keep the arts of domination of other humans with whom they don't intend to mingle ever again honed ditto, they manage to successfully select and breed for all-round superiority despite their low numbers, they somehow manage to support themselves, although the bulk of population is fully engaged in esoteric pursuits, they can keep immobilized and flayed people with open brain-cases alive for years - something which would require a massive technological base, which they apparently lack or magic, which they also lack. Furthermore, these supremely rational beings decided that Moenghus became "contaminated" through his brief contact with the outside (very little faith in their Conditioning there and apparently wrong to boot), but instead of putting him down or making him a flayed exhibit they exiled him? Really? What did those paragons of logic think would happen if he really _was_ contaminated, huh?

Now, please don't misunderstand me. I don't hate Bakker. In fact, I read him with great interest, even staying up for most of the night once. His plot is interesting, his inspirations comparatively fresh, his writing good. He is better than run-of-the-mill. I would dislike certain elements of the series even if they were logically explained and plausible within the setting. But they aren't and IMHO can't be. And as far as I am concerned, for the work in which "what comes before", i.e. in less fancy words cause and effect is such a central concept, it is a real failing. That's why, for me PoN can never be first-tier fantasy. It ranks a bit above Keyes's "Kingdom of Thorn and Bone" for me. PoN has better writing and plotting, but "realism", worldbuilding and intellect of the aliens involved are about on the same level.

[A Time for Wolves]

Maia, although I think you make a few good points, I still think that we don't know enough to say for sure that his worldbuilding doesn't make sense or the sense of realism isn't there. Most authors - especially those in the epic fantasy tradition - have a huge amount of backstory that never make it into the books. I think there are a few somewhat plausible explanations for things we don't fully understand yet. You can't make an argument about the No-God when we don't even understand the nature of the No-God yet. Personally, I thought that he sounded like a confused, bewildered baby with incredible power - which is kind of creepy and sinister in a different way.

We also don't know a lot about the Tekne, Inchoroi or the Nonmen even. So I think your opinion is a bit premature. Bakker might explain more in the next duology.

[Guest]

Slightly shifting gears...

Is the 2nd book in the duology for sure going to be called "Horns of Golgoterath?" God I hope not. I hate those types of titles in fantasy. One of my favorite things about Bakker is that he has bad ass titles like "TDTCB" and "TTT."

[Tears of Lys]

Maia, I agree - you DO make a lot of good points. I too found myself wondering why the Scylvendi aligned themselves with the No-God. I guess one possible reason is that they seem to have almost a cult of death and what better god to worship if this is so. Although, it's a good thing the No-God was destroyed long ago, or the Scylvendi wouldn't be around currently, no matter how much they supported him!

And your bit about the Dunyain and their apparent setting loose of Moenghus on the world ("exiling" him) is confusing me too, as they apparently all commit suicide because they've now been contaminated right after sending Kellhus out. WTF?

Your other points about how magic interacts with this world (or doesn't) are very well taken too.

Well, I, as well, enjoy it even if I don't think some it makes sense in certain areas just yet.

And Brienne, the No-God sort of reminds me of Audrey II in "Little Shop of Horrors" only instead of saying "Feed me!" it says - what - I can't remember right now. Anyway, I agree with Brienne about it sounding like a big baby.

Let's keep the Bakker thread going. We've got to catch up to the Lemmings.

[Shryke]

I mean, let's take a look:

Existence of magic, which seems to affect the social structure and development of humans very little, because in implausible, but time-honored tradition of fantasy it is used only for war, high-level communication and questioning/torture (and why they need the latter when they have Compulsion is a mystery). It never occurs to anybody to use magic for something constructive, like road-building, mining, creating harbors, etc. Talent for magic appears to be genetic, but nobody seems to have noticed that and used it to their advantage until the advent of Moenghus (sic!), although moaning about too few recruits appears to be widespread among the Schools.

They've actually tried to use magic for something constructive, but it just doesn't work. Akka comments on this at quite a few points. He thinks about how the only thing it's good for is destruction.

Basically, you've got to think of the world as a great, beautiful painting. Sorcerors are humans with the ability to redraw some of that painting. Of course, their skills at doing so are about on par with a mentally handicapped kid with sidewalk chalk and no fine motor skills. You can scribble shit out easy, but actually drawing something else in? Way beyond your ability. (That's actually almost the exact analogy he uses btw).

Also, the Anasurimbors are the only evidence we've seen of sorcery being passed down.

Another, more long-lived humanoid race (there certainly are allusions that they were longer-lived naturally, before their debacle with the Inchoroi, in the appendices), that for no reason that I can discern appears to be as sexist as the humans. One would think that longer life-spans would make early gender specialization less necessary and less final and that their acceptance and more logical use of magic would make them want to employ as many mages as they could. They also appear to have been as obsessed with sex as humans, despite their longer life-spans and likely consequently lower fertility, but wouldn't much mingle with humans sexually or breed with human women even after their own were all killed. Even though they appear to be able to do so and produce robust and fertile hybrid offspring (like that first Anasurimbor Emperor, who lived to be 170). And of course, existence of another intelligent species on a higher level of civilization, affected human development in the books very little, comparatively speaking.

Huh? At what point are the Non-men displayed as sexist or sex obsessed? Hell, at what point to we learn anything about them? The only hints we get at the way they think are from Kelhuss studying their artwork in the mansion he enters at the end of TTT. He comes away thinking of them as a species that "celebrates deed in all their ambivilant complexity".

Also, human civilization was greatly affected by the non-men. They taught us sorcery among other things. And their influence was what lead to the preeminence of the north before the First Apocalypse.

The aliens, which wanted to extinguish intelligent life on the planet and went about it in a remarkably bone-headed manner. Yes, they may or may not be rational, but they were able to create plagues, they knew about the existence of humans and they also knew which part of the Non-Men society kicked their ass the first time around. So what did they do? Killed Non-Men females, made Non-Men males immortal and desperate, thus more dangerous, and didn't do anything about humans at all, instead indulging in much more difficult and expensive creation of "weapons races". I mean, really, who would do so, when plagues and poisoning are ever so much more convenient and reliable? And it isn't like those aliens were psychologically unable to see it that way. And again, their presence and shenanigans apparently were largely irrelevant in shaping of human cultures and history. Yes, despite the Apocalypse.

The Incoroi, as is also explained, have little to no knowledge of how to use the Techne anymore. They fumble in the dark. Occasionally they stumble upon something useful. And they were beaten back, defeated and sealed inside their ship long before humans came to that part of the world. And if you don't think the First Apocalypse was a large influence on humanity, I don't know what the fuck to tell you.

The Dunayin. Really, they are impossible, all the more so because they are supposed to have evolved from the garden-variety humans. They stick with an esoteric and very demanding goal for millenia, they keep the arts of domination of other humans with whom they don't intend to mingle ever again honed ditto, they manage to successfully select and breed for all-round superiority despite their low numbers, they somehow manage to support themselves, although the bulk of population is fully engaged in esoteric pursuits, they can keep immobilized and flayed people with open brain-cases alive for years - something which would require a massive technological base, which they apparently lack or magic, which they also lack. Furthermore, these supremely rational beings decided that Moenghus became "contaminated" through his brief contact with the outside (very little faith in their Conditioning there and apparently wrong to boot), but instead of putting him down or making him a flayed exhibit they exiled him? Really? What did those paragons of logic think would happen if he really _was_ contaminated, huh?

They don't practice how to dominate other humans. They learn to read emotions on peoples faces to better identify and purge them from their students. The fact that this skill, combined with superior intellect, predictive power and complete control over their own bodies allows them to control other people is simply "co-incidence". It's a by-product, not a goal. Normal humans are like children to them, and children are easily manipulated if you know how.

As for managing to support themselves, it's not that difficult. Especially when all these people would be doing is either training or supporting themselves. There's more then enough time in the day for this when leisure activities don't exist.

Moenghus was sent out to kill the Scranc that had found them. When he returned afterwards, they deemed that he was contaminated by the outside and simply refuse to let him back in. Going out to kill him would probably be seen as inviting further contamination.

The res, well, it's a fantasy book. The Dunyain are about as plausible as Dune's Bene Gesserit. Hell, they're very similar.

I'm really trying to figure out if you even read the same book I did. Seriously.

[Guest]

And your bit about the Dunyain and their apparent setting loose of Moenghus on the world ("exiling" him) is confusing me too, as they apparently all commit suicide because they've now been contaminated right after sending Kellhus out. WTF?

Yeah - I don't exactly get the whole thing with Moenghus and Kellhus. Would Kellhus not be contaminated now as well? I'm curious what the other Dunyain would think about Kellhus now. I'm sure we'll find out in future books.

[Guarneri]

I think that the Dunyain are considered realistic in the same sense as Herbert's Bene Gesserit are, actually. In fantasy usually the explanation is simply, "it's magic!" there's an effect, but no cause leading to it is really given. The Bene Gesserit and Dunyain don't act in ways that are simply "magic", their effects are the byproducts of fine-tuned manipulation, gene breeding, and physical and mental conditioning.

All of these things are present in our own reality, though we can't control them to the point that is done within these fantasy novels, so the "fantasy" aspect is simply that there techniques are done at a level by which our own civilization cannot reach, even if the same basic elements are already present in our own (breeding, knowledge of genes, manipulation, conditioning, etc) In other words our reality has the seeds, while the Dunyain and Bene Gesserit show you the blossoms that can be achieved from correct knowledge and application of those technique.

That is what makes it realistic.

[Shryke]

They do think he's contaminated.

Look, it goes like this:

1) Scranc locate Ishual.

2) Moenghus is sent out to kill them to keep them from telling anyone that the Dunyain are there.

3) Moenghus does it, and returns, at which points he is told they won't let him back in, since it would invite contamination from the outside world.

4) Moenghus wanders off, life at Ishual goes on.

5) Much later, Moenghus starts invading peoples dreams and demanding they send him his son.

6) The Dunyain don't like this contamination either, so they send Kelhuss out, with orders to kill his father to stop him from contaminating them further.

7) The rest of the Dunyain who he spoke to kill themselves, to contain the contamination.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

The res, well, it's a fantasy book. The Dunyain are about as plausible as Dune's Bene Gesserit. Hell, they're very similar.

Actually I would say that the Dunyain = Bene Gesserit + Mentat. And considering that the Bene Gesserit and Mentats approach their crafts from two completely different angles, this makes the Dunyain a rather scary combination and represent more a case of "If the Mentats could replicate the Bene Gesserit training" or kind of like an entire community of people like Paul Atreides.

[Shryke]

Yeah, that'd be about the idea. I mean, both Paul Atreides and Kelhuss are the classic "uber-mensch" idea, so it's no surprise.

[Guest]

On the subject of the Ark, it seems the theory is that it came from somewhere Outside, like space, or another dimension or something. Is it possible that it came from overseas instead? Which raises another quesiton in my mind

Is there any reference anywhere in PON where something from overseas is referenced? It seems like everything is in the Three Seas/Earwa region on one continent.

[Shryke]

No not really. It's like the whole "Here there be Dragons" thing on old maps. For a society this primative, it's simply to fa away to effect them at all.

[Guest]

Another question. The Psukhe vs. the other form of magic, anogogic and gnosis. Bakker describes the latter two as based on intellect, and the Psukhe as based on heart or passion. Do you think in any way he was making any kind of cultural or religious comparison between Christian nations and Islamic societies? I would guess no, but it was just an interesting distinction I wondered about.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Another question. The Psukhe vs. the other form of magic, anogogic and gnosis. Bakker describes the latter two as based on intellect, and the Psukhe as based on heart or passion. Do you think in any way he was making any kind of cultural or religious comparison between Christian nations and Islamic societies? I would guess no, but it was just an interesting distinction I wondered about.

Probably not since the Schools were not really Christian, but exists outside of the Inrithi faiths.