BAKKER VI: Death comes swirling down

[Guest]

Probably not since the Schools were not really Christian, but exists outside of the Inrithi faiths.

Duh. Thanks. I should have realized that. I just thought it was sort of interesting that they both more or less can do similar things with their sorcery, yet the author made totally different explanations for how they come to be.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Yes, magic is purely destructive in Bakkerworld and in this it is very definitely not alike magic in most fantasy novels. The most striking example is utter lack of healing - the most obvious and common use of magic except combat in most fantasy. Nobody can heal by magic in Earwa and this is one ot things which stroke me from very beginning.

As for Scylvendi they are nihilists who refuse to worship gods, reject the notion of afterlife and do not value life. As such they welcome the idea of the end of the world and therefore are natural followers of No-God. It may not be a realistic portrayal of human nature, but it certainly fits the prevailing mood of Bakkerworld.

And, yes, Dunyain are greater than life, but I don't mind this at all. It is a fantasy novel after all and you expect greater than life characters.

[Maltaran]

On the subject of the Ark, it seems the theory is that it came from somewhere Outside, like space, or another dimension or something. Is it possible that it came from overseas instead? Which raises another quesiton in my mind

Is there any reference anywhere in PON where something from overseas is referenced? It seems like everything is in the Three Seas/Earwa region on one continent.

There's one scene where Akka and some of the others are talking about the stars, and he says that the Inchoroi told the Non-men that the stars were suns, and that they came from one of them. It's fairly explicit that they're space aliens.

[Guest]

There's one scene where Akka and some of the others are talking about the stars, and he says that the Inchoroi told the Non-men that the stars were suns, and that they came from one of them. It's fairly explicit that they're space aliens.

OK, I think I remember this now. This is kind of interesting to me. Bakker seemed to really want the Holy War to be the centerpiece for his story, but now it's going to shift into a battle with space aliens? Way sketch. But so good.

My Bakker questions keep coming. Who are Aurax and Aurang, or rather, which one is which? Isn't one of them the "synthese" or the little bald bird with the blue eyes? And is the other the one who humps Esmenet crazy in Sumna and then takes her over near the end of TTT? Or are those two things the same thing?

I love how Bakker kept using the phrase "The thing called Sarcellus."

[Shryke]

There the 2 "brothers". As far as we know, their the only 2 Inchoroi still alive.

Ones the little bald bird thing. The other's the horrible raping demon frm the end of TWP and was also the one to posses Esmi in TTT. I'm not sure which one had sex with her in TDTCB though.

With respect to the shifting, you've got to understand that this whole thing was originally a trilogy called The Second Apocalypse. The Prince of Nothing was book 1 and The Aspect Emperor was book 2. Of course, they couldn't all fit in one book, so we're getting a trilogy of series (at this point, 1 trilogy and 2 duologies). So, the first book is about Kelhuss' rise to power, the second about ... well, we're not sure about the other 2 yet.

But it's all about the Second Apocalypse in the end.

[Guest]

There the 2 "brothers". As far as we know, their the only 2 Inchoroi still alive.

Ones the little bald bird thing. The other's the horrible raping demon frm the end of TWP and was also the one to posses Esmi in TTT. I'm not sure which one had sex with her in TDTCB though.

With respect to the shifting, you've got to understand that this whole thing was originally a trilogy called The Second Apocalypse. The Prince of Nothing was book 1 and The Aspect Emperor was book 2. Of course, they couldn't all fit in one book, so we're getting a trilogy of series (at this point, 1 trilogy and 2 duologies). So, the first book is about Kelhuss' rise to power, the second about ... well, we're not sure about the other 2 yet.

But it's all about the Second Apocalypse in the end.

So other than the No-God, these two fellows Aurax and Aurang are the two be-all, end-alls of the Inchoroi and the Consult and other than that, it's just a bunch of Sranc?

[Shryke]

Don't forgot the Consult itself. Which is a bunch of, we're assuming immortal, sorcerers and generals. And the Scranc cover like 2/3 of the continent. And then there's dragons and those other huge troll-like thing whose name escapes me right now.

[Guest]

Don't forgot the Consult itself. Which is a bunch of, we're assuming immortal, sorcerers and generals. And the Scranc cover like 2/3 of the continent. And then there's dragons and those other huge troll-like thing whose name escapes me right now.

Yeah, the dragons are called "Wracu" and the other things, I forget what they're called, but it stats with a "B" I think.

Are some of the non-men part of the consult now?

[Shryke]

Yes. Are or were. I believe the only ones who are part of the Consult are Erratics. And they're .... erratic, so they may or may not still be on their side. Remember the Non-man at the start of TDTCB. He makes a comment about having fought both for and against the Consult. Erratics are a little on the crazy side.

EDIT: Yes, that was it. Wracu and Bashrag.

[delete this account pls]

To elaborate a bit further, the Inchoroi were the 'aliens' that originally crashed into Earwa in the Ark. There used to be more, including a King, but only Aurang and Aurax are left.

The Consult are a cabal of human sorcerors and generals and a few Nonmen Erratics that sided with the Inchoroi in the years preceeding the First Apocalypse. Many of the Consult are from a Gnostic School of the Ancient North that turned traitor and was outlawed.

The Sranc, Bashrag, and Wracu are all creations of the Inchoroi, as was the No god.

[Happy Ent]

So other than the No-God, these two fellows Aurax and Aurang are the two be-all, end-alls of the Inchoroi and the Consult and other than that, it's just a bunch of Sranc?

Two comments to add to what other said: the factions in Bakkerworld do not necessarily follow species. Nonmen are fighting both with and against the Inchoroï, we see some Nonmen in the epilogue of TWP. Homo sapiens Scylvendi side with the Consult as well. (Scylvendi horse archers were the first wave of attackers at the Plains of Mengedda, that's the final battle of the First Apocalypse, when the No-God was zapped with the Heron Spear. Only then came the wave of Scranc.)

Of the old Tekne constructs we now little. Seswatha destroyed a dragon, what become of the others we don't know. Bashrags are last reported at Mengedda as well, as far as I can see. The new constructs are the skin-spies, built primarily for espionage and infiltration, but clearly very powerful warriors in their own right. Again, we don't know their numbers.

But the Consult is a school of Gnosis-wielding (human) sorcerers. We don't know their numbers either, they may indeed just be a tiny, withered coven of old men sitting in a circle mumbling, as Akka suspects in some scene I can't remember. But the Consul could also by now consist of immortal demigods, close to Kellhusian mastery of magic.

[Tears of Lys]

Okay. Now I've got a question. I see that the actual human being doesn't have to be dead for a skin-spy to take on their appearance (evidenced by Esmenet.) Thinking about this led me to wonder how deep this taking on the appearance of someone went. I'm rereading TDTCB and am at the part where the emperor's mother is arguing with him about sending Conphas to what she believes is his death.

While I realize that as a skin-spy member of the Consult, her argument against the emperor's use of Conphas in an attempt to take over the Holy War made sense; however, she seemed well and truly terrified for the sake of Conphas too - too much for her to be just a copy. She's carried from the room in hysterics by her eunuch. (wouldn't we all love to have a pet eunuch. )

Anyway, anybody got any insights into how deep this mimicking behavior goes?

The other skin-spy we get to see in action was the one who took over Esmenet - at least I thought it was a skin-spy (now I'm hearing it was either Aurax or Aurang) and that one didn't seem to have much depth of the personality of Esme. Maybe I'm answering my own question, though. Whoever took over Esme didn't have a whole lotta time to get into details - he/it had to derail Acka fast.

P.S. And does "skin-spying" differ when it's done by your garden-variety skin-spy vs. your Aurax/Aurang "skin-spy"?

The concept, obviously, is one of interest to me. My favorite character on of Star Trek: Deep Space 9 was Odo.

[Happy Ent]

P.S. And does "skin-spying" differ when it's done by your garden-variety skin-spy vs. your Aurax/Aurang "skin-spy"?

It differs.

The skin spy is a copy of the original. The original need not be dead, he could be standing next to the original.

What the Inchoroï does to Esmi is something completely different. He takes over her body, makes her the vessel of his will. After the possession, Esmi, is back to her normal self. (Plus some nasty memories.) The Inchoroï has no interest in imitating Esmi.

[Shryke]

Okay. Now I've got a question. I see that the actual human being doesn't have to be dead for a skin-spy to take on their appearance (evidenced by Esmenet.) Thinking about this led me to wonder how deep this taking on the appearance of someone went. I'm rereading TDTCB and am at the part where the emperor's mother is arguing with him about sending Conphas to what she believes is his death.

While I realize that as a skin-spy member of the Consult, her argument against the emperor's use of Conphas in an attempt to take over the Holy War made sense; however, she seemed well and truly terrified for the sake of Conphas too - too much for her to be just a copy. She's carried from the room in hysterics by her eunuch. (wouldn't we all love to have a pet eunuch. )

Anyway, anybody got any insights into how deep this mimicking behavior goes?

The other skin-spy we get to see in action was the one who took over Esmenet - at least I thought it was a skin-spy (now I'm hearing it was either Aurax or Aurang) and that one didn't seem to have much depth of the personality of Esme. Maybe I'm answering my own question, though. Whoever took over Esme didn't have a whole lotta time to get into details - he/it had to derail Acka fast.

P.S. And does "skin-spying" differ when it's done by your garden-variety skin-spy vs. your Aurax/Aurang "skin-spy"?

The concept, obviously, is one of interest to me. My favorite character on of Star Trek: Deep Space 9 was Odo.

The Empress wasn't replaced till AFTER the end of TDTCB when their other spy in the palace dies. At least, as far as I remember. In fact, during TWP, the Emperor thinks briefly about a change in her personality.

[delete this account pls]

The Empress wasn't replaced till AFTER the end of TDTCB when their other spy in the palace dies. At least, as far as I remember. In fact, during TWP, the Emperor thinks briefly about a change in her personality.

Actually I think the Empress was a skin-spy from the start of TDTCB. Xerius thinks early on that she's acting differently, and she's in league with Skeaos from the very start in trying to turn Xerius plans of controlling the Holy War.

[Jora]

Actually I think the Empress was a skin-spy from the start of TDTCB. Xerius thinks early on that she's acting differently, and she's in league with Skeaos from the very start in trying to turn Xerius plans of controlling the Holy War.

Didn't Conphas speak with Skeäos at the Andiamine Heights in TDtCB saying something like: "Are you conspiring with my grandmother?" So she was a skin-spy before the fake Skeäos' death.

[Tears of Lys]

It differs.

The skin spy is a copy of the original. The original need not be dead, he could be standing next to the original.

What the Inchoroï does to Esmi is something completely different. He takes over her body, makes her the vessel of his will. After the possession, Esmi, is back to her normal self. (Plus some nasty memories.) The Inchoroï has no interest in imitating Esmi.

Thanks. That makes sense.

I'm impressed by some posters' ability to clearly grasp some of the finer points of PoN. If it's done on the first reading, I'm even MORE impressed. Things are a lot clearer to me the second go-around, but I was too busy trying to keep the characters straight the first time.

Re: Timing of Empress being taken over by skin-spy - I'm arguing for it being sometime after her first appearance in the book, since she's clearly emotionally affected by her fears for Conphas in the beginning.

[Guest]

Another Inchoroi question. What is their natural form? Is it the thing described at the end of TWP who keeps asking "Who are the Dunyain?"

And if they use magic to change forms, take people over, etc...did they come to Earwa knowing these ablities already or did they learn it here?

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Another Inchoroi question. What is their natural form? Is it the thing described at the end of TWP who keeps asking "Who are the Dunyain?"

Probably, although I suppose it is rather worse for the wear after all those millennia. All what we really know is that Inchoroi were winged beings and Non-Men found their looks disgusting.

And if they use magic to change forms, take people over, etc...did they come to Earwa knowing these ablities already or did they learn it here?

They had to learn them in Earwa, since before coming there they weren't even aware magic exists.

[Guest]

Yeah, I picture them sort of gargoyle-esque.