NFL V

[14th Dragon]

Sportsmanship is essential at every level of football. There is a code. There are things you do and things you don't do. And the cost for 'doing things you don't do' is that other teams often retaliate by doing something else you generally don't do. Using a sucker play at the end of a half when up by 28 is one of the things you 'don't do'. Not as serious as intentionally diving into the knees of a quarterback, but something that an NFL player knows is likely to end up escalating.

Well I must say this. I credit the Dolphins players from 1 to 53 for not whining once about the score, the fake or putting Brady back in. Even if they do feel it was unneccesary and unsportsmanlike they have the good sense to take it like men.

Though I fully expect when the fortunes turn, Miami will not for a second hesitate to run the score as high as possible when the oppurtunity arrises. I did not feel bad for the Raiders for the Tuck rule becuase of 1976 and I am sure Miami fans will feel no sympathy becasue of 2007.

[Week]

Sportsmanship is what keeps teams from taking cheap shots intended to injure.

The fines alone are not enough - you don't think in the absence of sportsmanship the Pats would decide that the $100K fine and suspension are worth it - take out Peyton at the first opportunity. Or the reverse - that Mangini would have his revenge on Belichik with a cheap shot that ends Brady's career.

Sportsmanship is essential at every level of football. There is a code. There are things you do and things you don't do. And the cost for 'doing things you don't do' is that other teams often retaliate by doing something else you generally don't do. Using a sucker play at the end of a half when up by 28 is one of the things you 'don't do'. Not as serious as intentionally diving into the knees of a quarterback, but something that an NFL player knows is likely to end up escalating.

You honestly think that the Pats would intentionally end Peyton's career? If murder was legal do you think they would just off him? Easy on the haterade.

I do agree that fines are not enough and neither are cut and dried suspensions. Plays were an intent to injure is clear should result in suspension for at least as long as the victim is out, a fine, and payment of medical bills if there is an injury. That makes more sense to me than a simple fine. I really feel strongly about this for the NHL, which is the context where I first thought about this, players like Chris Simon, Todd Bertuzzi and Ulf Samuelsson (when he was playing) should have had their careers prematurely ended after the careers they ended intentionally.

[Bronn Stone]

You honestly think that the Pats would intentionally end Peyton's career? If murder was legal do you think they would just off him? Easy on the haterade.

Actually, I don't think that. I think that sportsmanship stops them from considering such a thing. Which is why Stego is wrong and sportsmanship is a key element in football at every level. Including among those who get paid.

[Week]

Actually, I don't think that. I think that sportsmanship stops them from considering such a thing. Which is why Stego is wrong and sportsmanship is a key element in football at every level. Including among those who get paid.

I think that is something beyond sportsmanship, more moral/ethical responsibility. There is a huge difference between running up the score, calling unnecessary trick plays, etc. and intentionally injuring the other team.

[Rockroi]

Sportsmanship is what keeps teams from taking cheap shots intended to injure….you don't think in the absence of sportsmanship the Pats would decide that the $100K fine and suspension are worth it - take out Peyton at the first opportunity. Or the reverse - that Mangini would have his revenge on Belichik with a cheap shot that ends Brady's career.

But the pats are NOT engaging in such behavior. Nobody is getting injured as a result of us scoring points; the Pats are not ending anyone’s career. We are not breaking any bones or rupturing any ligaments. We are scoring points. Not comparable.

Now, COULD it lead to worse? Meh- maybe, but I’m not overly concerned with that at any level. What goes around comes around- the Pats will, one day, be terrible again (I plan to be in cryo-freeze when this occurs). When that happens, either the Jets, Bills, or Dolphins will be fantastic- and they will not CARE that on one day they got the score run up on them- they will instead just remember that the Pats would always WHUP on them and give a little payback. And it will be like 28-3. Oh well. Such is life.

IF however, somebody decided that because the score was so high they just HAD TO rupture Brady’s Achilles’ Tendon, that player would be 100% in the wrong; it would be HE (not Brady) who was the one breaking “the code.†He would be the one who was unsportsmanlike and he should be the one you save your venom for.

[CelticBrennus]

Granted the skill of the recievers and the QB, but why does it seem like no one is (or can) attack the pass game? Yeesh.

Just had to point this out again: How are you supposed to attack the passing game when Brady can simply throw a 50 yard pass to Moss in the end zone, when he is double covered and Moss can simply jump over the top of both DB's and catch the ball? Or when Stallworth simply breaks two or three tackles and outruns the safety to score? There were at least three plays against the Dolphins where the Pats scored, not because the Dolphins blew coverage, or left a man wide open, but simply because they could not stop it.

You have plenty of quotes from Dolphins DB's saying that they did everything they were supposed to do, and simply cannot think of how they could have done better.

As far as the Dolphins drive in the 3rd quarter, it seems more the fact that they played into the Patriots hands. If you are down by 3 or 4 scores, does it do you a single bit of good to engage in a 7 or 8 minute drive? All the Dolphins did was help seal their loss there by killing so much time off the clock. Belichick lets the Dolphins kill the clock for him, rather then forcing their own offense to do it.

As far as running up the score, I will let Jason Taylor speak for me:

Taylor, whose touchdown gave him eight for his career, an NFL record for defensive linemen, had no problems with the way Belichick managed the game.

“That’s what you should do,” he said. “You shouldn’t be conservative and sit back just because you have a lead. They took Tommy out for a while and they put him back in because of the interception. That’s what the game is.

“If you don’t want people to run the score up, then stop them. I have no problem with it.”

http://www.projo.com/patriots/content/sp_f...1E.30b6302.html

[14th Dragon]

When that happens, either the Jets, Bills, or Dolphins will be fantastic- and they will not CARE that on one day they got the score run up on them- they will instead just remember that the Pats would always WHUP on them and give a little payback. And it will be like 28-3. Oh well. Such is life.

Per Steve Grogan - 52-0 Miami in 1972. We have the undeanable truth about how the situation can escalate.

[Stego]

The straw man of intentional injuries as opposed to scoring in a game where you're supposed to score is laughable, and I mock you for it, Bronn.

I mock you derisively.

[grozeng]

Sportsmanship is what keeps teams from taking cheap shots intended to injure.

Sportsmanship is essential at every level of football. There is a code. There are things you do and things you don't do. And the cost for 'doing things you don't do' is that other teams often retaliate by doing something else you generally don't do. Using a sucker play at the end of a half when up by 28 is one of the things you 'don't do'. Not as serious as intentionally diving into the knees of a quarterback, but something that an NFL player knows is likely to end up escalating.

Stego, this was exactly my point. I'd be worried about Brady being hit in the next Dolphins game (that is if the Dolphins were capable of getting anywhere near close enough to hit Brady).

[Kalbear]

Rock, the problem isn't taking off the gas in the second quarter. The problem is running a gimmick play when you're up 35-7. Gimmick plays are for teams that are in a tight race, teams that need an edge and need to try something special because they're overmatched.

Or they're for rubbing it in the face that the other team is just outclassed.

I don't have any problem with the pats scoring, but I can see other teams having a big problem with the Pats running gimmick plays when they're up that much and are doing fine with the bread and butter. It's not running up the score that's the problem. Just so you don't misinterpret what I said, I'll say it again. In the Miami game, running up the score is not the issue. The issue is running trick plays when up 28 points in the two-minute drill.

Taylor didn't have any problem with the score being run up, but he didn't say anything about that spike, did he?

But the pats are NOT engaging in such behavior. Nobody is getting injured as a result of us scoring points; the Pats are not ending anyone’s career. We are not breaking any bones or rupturing any ligaments. We are scoring points. Not comparable.

Tell that to JP Losman.

[Stego]

Stego, this was exactly my point. I'd be worried about Brady being hit in the next Dolphins game (that is if the Dolphins were capable of getting anywhere near close enough to hit Brady).

It isn't 'sportsmanship' that keeps people from trying to end the careers of others; it's humanity.

And Kal, that's horseshit. (And the best thing that ever happened to the Bills.)

[Kalbear]

What, that the Pats hurt Losman, or the Pats used gimmick plays to rub it in the faces of the Dolphins?

[grozeng]

It isn't 'sportsmanship' that keeps people from trying to end the careers of others; it's humanity.

And Kal, that's horseshit. (And the best thing that ever happened to the Bills.)

Stego, that wasn't the point I was trying to make though. I'm not talking end career either. I don't think anyone will intentionally go out to end someone's career. But putting Brady back in after he has cooled down and taken off his eye-black is a good way to get his bell rung (if the O-line would let anyone touch him). All to score a meaningless (to the Non-Pats fan world) TD.

Anyway, feel free to use this as ammo for the Jets/Pats bet I will make with you.

[Jaime L]

Jamie....title bet?

What kinda points you giving?

You would think this is the one week you;d shut up about the Pats. Or maybe you're getting it all out before your jaw hits the floor. I dunno.

See here's what you guys don't get. I'm not/have not been talking trash about the Pats, really at all this year. Can't help but be blown away by this team. As I've brought up a couple times, I don't have a clue how you beat this team. None whatsoever. I respect how ruthlessly efficient they are in all phases; they don't make the mistakes that everyone else does and if you have a weakness they'll destroy you with it.

I'm just trying to figure out this mindset, this need to not just beat teams handily..but annihilate 'em completely. There's no mercy left in Belichick. And it's a concern when my team's going to face 'em. When I slam a team, believe me, it's far more direct.

Anyway, my opinion is that the Redskins have a chance to have the best safety tandem in the history of the game. They have a talented young QB, a great runner, very, very good receivers and tough playmakers on both sides of the ball.

The Pats beat them by 21.

Can't say I disagree with any of this.

Redskins only hope is that both their lines play at a level that's at least close to comparable to the Pats (which is a ridiculous lot to ask for), that Taylor and Landry play out of their mind and that Jason Campbell has a defining game. Anything short of that and it'll probably get ugly fast.

[Kalbear]

As I've brought up a couple times, I don't have a clue how you beat this team.

I think you beat the Pats with bad weather. As weird as it is to say, right now the Pats are a finesse offense. They aren't bruisingly winning games; they're making good routes and passing well. Neither of their RBs are particularly power runners at this point, and their line doesn't work that way either.

I think that's the best shot, but it's not a great shot because their defense will still keep them in the game. Their D has shown some weakness but is still very good.

[14th Dragon]

See here's what you guys don't get. I'm not/have not been talking trash about the Pats, really at all this year. Can't help but be blown away by this team. As I've brought up a couple times, I don't have a clue how you beat this team. None whatsoever. I respect how ruthlessly efficient they are in all phases; they don't make the mistakes that everyone else does and if you have a weakness they'll destroy you with it.

I'm just trying to figure out this mindset, this need to not just beat teams handily..but annihilate 'em completely. There's no mercy left in Belichick. And it's a concern when my team's going to face 'em. When I slam a team, believe me, it's far more direct.

Bunker mentality. Everyone living a distance of more then 100 miles from 1 Patriots PLaza is clearly the enemy. Only complete annihilation of thier foes will allow them a moment of rest.

[Rockroi]

I don't have any problem with the pats scoring, … It's not running up the score that's the problem. … In the Miami game, running up the score is not the issue.

So, what I am hearing is that you are really upset at the Pats for running up the score…

The issue is running trick plays when up 28 points in the two-minute drill.

But- and this is key- the “gimmick†play is actually the PERFECT play to call in that situation. Driving with 2 minutes left, running down to the LoS, QB looks like he’s gonna spike it, defense is off balance, etc.. Its the right play to run at that time. If it works, horray – 6 points. If it does not work, horray- you stopped the clock. And can run another play (which is what happend).

And the result is the SAME if they ran a double-half-trap-between the legs-flea-flicker with a fake double-reverse-end around or if they ran a one-yard dive. The team is trying to score- do whatever it takes to do that.

Now, where I have a problem is… well now you can never run that play again with the shock value of last week (same btw of the flea flicker against Dallas). Players may expect it. That is the only area that peeves me.

And Lossman was hurt because Wilfork was being grabbed from behind and was still trying to make a play (or as some argue, was trying to maintain his balance). I'll take that kind of guy every day of the week, thanks.

[Kalbear]

If it does not work, horray- you stopped the clock.

How does the fake spike stop the clock? It's still a play, after all. Or rather, how does it stop the clock in any different way than a normal pass play does?

And the result is the SAME if they ran a double-half-trap-between the legs-flea-flicker with a fake double-reverse-end around or if they ran a one-yard dive. The team is trying to score- do whatever it takes to do that.

Well, a one yard dive would have resulted in a gain of a yard and no score, so I don't think it's quite the same.

The gimmick play is the perfect play to call when you're actually worried about scoring and need to have an edge, you need that score, and you're really worried about your opponent. Tell me true, Rock - do you think that the Pats were really worried about Miami when they were leading 35-7, driving down the field under 2 minutes in the first half? Do you really feel like the Pats needed to worry about an 0-6 team? No, that's not the perfect time to play the gimmick because it shows your hand. It's one more thing that other teams can expect from you. It's more information spent uselessly against a weak opponent.

It's like the finishing move after going perfect in mortal kombat.

[Bronn Stone]

The straw man of intentional injuries as opposed to scoring in a game where you're supposed to score is laughable, and I mock you for it, Bronn.

I mock you derisively.

This mockery is poor sportsmanship, you do realize.

[grozeng]

And Lossman was hurt because Wilfork was being grabbed from behind and was still trying to make a play (or as some argue, was trying to maintain his balance). I'll take that kind of guy every day of the week, thanks.

This kind of supports my point. I think Losman gut hurt because Wilfork is a 300 pound man that was trying to stop himself after being blocked by a lineman. If the Pats Line let anyone get near Brady, the same thing could happen. In a 21 point game that really didn't seem that close I would not want to worry about the key to the team getting hurt just to run up the score.