Asshai/Wall relationship (aDwD spoiler)

[Summer the Direwolf]

"I would be glad to leave this city, if truth be told," the knight (ser Jorah) said when she was done. "But not for Asshai."

"Where, then?"

"East," he said.

This clearly implies, that Asshai lies mainly south of Qarth. Yi Ti is said to be "southeast of Qarth, across the Jade Sea". To the east I would expect Faros (with the Stone Cow), the Lost City of Poets etc. But until an official map is out, all this nothing but speculation.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Yi Ti is said to be "southeast of Qarth, across the Jade Sea". To the east I would expect Faros (with the Stone Cow), the Lost City of Poets etc. But until an official map is out, all this nothing but speculation.

Where is that quote about Yi Ti's location from? I looked through the chapters in Qarth but couldn't find it.

[Summer the Direwolf]

Where is that quote about Yi Ti's location from? I looked through the chapters in Qarth but couldn't find it.

It´s from SSM, June 12, 2002.

Q: Where exactly are the cities of Yi Ti and Asshai in relation to Qarth? Are they on the same continent, or across the Jade Sea?

A: Yi Ti is to the south east of Qarth, generally, across the Jade Sea.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Thanks!

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

So there's definately a play between the curtain of light in the north and shadow in the south... I have no clue how this relates to ice and fire (if at all), or if Valyria is even related to these two, yet there it is in the text.

That's a very astute comment. I think you're completely right.

ETA:

Looking back over the earlier comments in this thread (and I'd forgotten how insightful it was), I'd just make the general comment that people should be wary of assuming that two seemingly opposing elements (light and shadow, winter and summer, etc.) are necessarily in opposition to each other. I think there's a lot in this exchange from the second Bran chapter in ASoS:

"Up and down," Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, "then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran."

"Yesterday you said you loved them."

"Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say."

Bran made a face at her. "But you just said you hated them."

"Why can't it be both?" Meere reached up to pinch his nose.

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Joen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled."

Your mileage may vary, of course; but I think this comment serves not only as a rejoinder to Melisandre's contrary comments to Davos while he sits in the dungeons beneath Dragonstone but also as a general way of looking at the world of Westeros: things that appear to be direct opposite, necessarily in conflict with each other, will often have hidden similarities.

(Also, it just occured to me that Jojen is echoing Stannis' comments later on, where he gives his excellent monologue about the land being all one.)

[valyrian dragonlord]

Just to throw in my two cents... I definately subscribe to the polarity theory. I'm currently doing a re-listen to AGOT, and in (I think) Bran's second chapter, when he first meets the three-eyed-crow, he is falling in his "dream" and he looks to the north far beyond the wall and sees a "curtain of light" where the heart of winter is, and to the south beyond Asshai he sees the shadow with "dragons stirring beneath the sunrise". So there's definately a play between the curtain of light in the north and shadow in the south... I have no clue how this relates to ice and fire (if at all), or if Valyria is even related to these two, yet there it is in the text.

" beneath the sunrise" - is that a hint for a shadow takeover? i mean, why is that thrown in like that?

also i think there are 2 continents, not 3 like on your map, OIL

uh, in the house of undying, rhaegar says aegon is the prince that was promised. this could get interesting if he's the mummer's dragon in quaithe's warning.

[Guest Other-in-law]

also i think there are 2 continents, not 3 like on your map, OIL

No, there are at least three. The third one on my map is Sothoryos. "Sothoryos is the southern continent, roughly equivalent to Africa, jungly, plague-ridden, and largely unexplored."

Sothoryos is not the same as the eastern continent (popularly, but incorrectly dubbed 'Easteros' on the board). Moreover, there must be an enormous unknown area of the globe, which GRRM has stated is rather larger than earth (possibly even approaching the size of Vance's big planet). There could be several more continents in the unexplored hemispheres, for all we know.

I continue to be curious about the climate zones on Martinworld. Where is the equator? I've wondered in the past about it being near Valyria, and thought that Asshai (which is much further south) could actually be quite a cold place. However, from the quote above it sounds like Sothoryos, which would lie more or less to the east of Asshai, is much hotter than Slaver's Bay or Qarth. So maybe, Asshai is on or close to the equator...this also fits with a much larger planet than earth, given that Westeros is said to be roughly South America sized.

An alternative that I considered (but now think unlikely) is that the South Pole on Westeros could be almost always be facing the sun, so that it was a scorchingly hot region instead of an icy one. The weird seasons might fit with something like that definitely would not fit with that. It would involve the celestial north pole to sweep around 360 degrees through the heavens in a single year, in contradiction to the fixed pole-star at the Ice-dragon's eye, so it would require some impossible astrophysics. Again, I doubt this model is correct.

If Asshai is indeed the hottest place in the known world, it's very strange that it should be so close to the shadowlands (whatever they are, anyway). A land that was always in shadow would tend to be a lot cooler than one exposed to the sun's warmth. Maybe the shadowlanders wear those lacquered masks as a sunblock, and the term Shadowlands comes from them needing to hide in the shadows to survive? That doesn't really fit with the phrase "the Shadow" which suggests a palpable entity of some sort unto itself.

[siyrean]

well think of at the beach, you can stand in very cool area of sand but take one step outside that shadow and you're burning your feet... could be the same deal, asshei very hot, shadow not so much... i don't know. all i wanna know is wtf is causing this damn shadow.

[Summer the Direwolf]

well think of at the beach, you can stand in very cool area of sand but take one step outside that shadow and you're burning your feet... could be the same deal, asshei very hot, shadow not so much... i don't know. all i wanna know is wtf is causing this damn shadow.

I´m with the giant volcano theory. An eruption, or a series of eruptions, could have filled the atmosphere with ash and smoke obscuring the sun, thus causing a dark volcanic winter ("Shadow"). Something like Krakatoa or Santorini eruption, but even in larger scale. This could easily explain the masks that shadowlanders wear: if there´s sulphuric acid and ash in the air, then wearing a face cover is the most logical thing to do.

The fact that dragonglass comes from Asshai supports this theory. Dragonglass (obsidian) is basically frozen felsic lava, so it hints to the existence of a volcano. According to the legends, dragons originate from the Shadowlands, and dragons clearly like the volcanic environment - the Valyrians bred them in their Fourteen Fires.

It also goes well along with the Ice/Fire polarity, with the Heart of Winter (whatever it is) in the Far North and the Giant Volcano (fire) deep in the southern Shadowlands. The only thing that troubles me is that we´d have two fire related "hinges" this way - Valyria and the Volcano. Perhaps Valyria was originally meant as a balancing point between Fire and Ice, but the Valyrians went too deep into Fire magic, destabilizing the world and causing the Doom upon themselves.

[Llewellyn]

I´m with the giant volcano theory. An eruption, or a series of eruptions, could have filled the atmosphere with ash and smoke obscuring the sun, thus causing a dark volcanic winter ("Shadow"). Something like Krakatoa or Santorini eruption, but even in larger scale. This could easily explain the masks that shadowlanders wear: if there´s sulphuric acid and ash in the air, then wearing a face cover is the most logical thing to do.

The fact that dragonglass comes from Asshai supports this theory. Dragonglass (obsidian) is basically frozen felsic lava, so it hints to the existence of a volcano. According to the legends, dragons originate from the Shadowlands, and dragons clearly like the volcanic environment - the Valyrians bred them in their Fourteen Fires.

It also goes well along with the Ice/Fire polarity, with the Heart of Winter (whatever it is) in the Far North and the Giant Volcano (fire) deep in the southern Shadowlands. The only thing that troubles me is that we´d have two fire related "hinges" this way - Valyria and the Volcano. Perhaps Valyria was originally meant as a balancing point between Fire and Ice, but the Valyrians went too deep into Fire magic, destabilizing the world and causing the Doom upon themselves.

But for such a calamity to be so ongoing as for it to become the name for the place would require a lot more than just an eruption or series of eruptions. It would require constant, ongoing eruptions for decades, if not centuries, which is completely unrealistic unless we're creating a whole new fantastic environment to fit the theory (not impossible, but IMO implausible and cut to ribbons by Occam).

[Jakob Lightbringer]

The Shadow does not necessarily need to sport an active volcano. Presence of Obsidian only indicates a volcanic history. The "shadow" could be a permanent protrusion or depression which blocks sunlight. A long narrow volcanic canyon might make sense.

On the other hand it could be a rain forest or a murky swamp for all we know -- if the foliage is dense enough to block sunlight.

[Guest Other-in-law]

The "shadow" could be a permanent protrusion or depression which blocks sunlight. A long narrow volcanic canyon might make sense.

On the other hand it could be a rain forest or a murky swamp for all we know -- if the foliage is dense enough to block sunlight.

I don't know...there are other places in the world that have rain forests (Sothoryos definitely, Yi Ti probably) but they don't get this whole cool custom title: "The Shadow". Also the Shadowlands appears to have it's own unique and indigenous school of sorcery: Shadowbinding. I get the distinct impression that there is a strong supernatural component to the Shadow.

[valyrian dragonlord]

i still kinda wonder about the consept of the shadowbinder's masks. are they possibly protection against the volcanoes stuff, as mentioned before, or just to single them out like the NW's black, or wards against the shadow, or IMO they're the like a status of rank, sorta like belts in karate /black mask expert shadowbinder/?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

i still kinda wonder about the consept of the shadowbinder's masks. are they possibly protection against the volcanoes stuff, as mentioned before, or just to single them out like the NW's black, or wards against the shadow, or IMO they're the like a status of rank, sorta like belts in karate /black mask expert shadowbinder/?

It's not the shadowbinders who wear them. It's people from the Shadow, who aren't all necessarily shadowbinders.

[Jakob Lightbringer]

I don't know...there are other places in the world that have rain forests (Sothoryos definitely, Yi Ti probably) but they don't get this whole cool custom title: "The Shadow".

Another cool possibility that goes in exactly the opposite direction:

Perhaps the Shadowlands are a black sand desert? Masks would serve a functional purpose in a desert as well.

[LittleFinger6000]

My interpetation of the Shadowlands has always been something similar to that of Northern Canada. For half the year, due to the axis of the Earth, the North Pole is in a state of permanent night. In Summer, permanent daylight.

I had figured that there was something similar going on near Asshai. A state of permanent night could be misconstrued as a shadow, particularily if viewed from nearby Asshai where they experience both day and night.

I remember reading somewhere about how a prehistoric event caused the seasons to last longer. It's possible that the same event caused the planet to shift it's axis, causing he shadow and possibly even the longer seasons.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

How about the Shadow as the counterpart of the Wall, It's a magical creation to keep out whatever is beyond it.

[valyrian dragonlord]

How about the Shadow as the counterpart of the Wall, It's a magical creation to keep out whatever is beyond it.

in contrast, i believe the SB are holding back the shadow, not the shadow holding back whatever it is.

[Dracarys!]

Something that's been stuck on my mind lately about the Shadow are the references about having to pass "beneath" it. The idea that it may be the Wall's counterpart is very nice, but if you can pass under the Shadow (or at least if you're supposed to), then it doesn't look much like containing or holding something back.

The Shadow sure looks mysterious and everything, but if it was truly dangerous, wouldn't people at least have some idea about it? All we know is that there's Asshai, and near it (we assume) there's the Shadow, which you're able to cross/pass/go under/whatever. Maybe is some sort of magical phenomena, like the Long Seasons, that makes the area permanently dark. Also, the fact that it is called a shadow implies that something very big is casting it.

There's some quote, I think from a Bran's dream, about the Shadow under which "dragons stir", so I think the Shadow is closely related to dragons.

<crackpot theory> When dragons die or are dying, what happens to them? We saw the skulls at KL, but certainly there should be more dragons in the world. Maybe the Shadow could be some sort of elephant cemetery for dragons; they would fly there to die, so it would be a place full of weird magic, presumably, and impossibly big bones. </crackpot>

[Jakob Lightbringer]

Something else that has been bothering me.

Hinges of the World could be a play on words.

Henges of the World

The Henges of the World -- like Stonehenge -- could be ancient architectural structures -- the Wall -- perhaps the Shadow -- for which only the wise remember how and why they were built.