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Slynt

A Thread for Small Questions

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I'm doing an AGoT reread, and looking through such books as the roleplaying game and The Art of Ice and Fire, and I constantly find small nuggets that I want to ask about, and then I forget it. But now I remember one of these small questions. Feel free to post other small questions and answers here!

My question:

In the chapter where Ned Stark is imprisoned in the dungeon of the Red Keep at the end of AGoT, he thinks of Lyanna, Rhaegar, the bed of blood and all that - but I noticed he thinks of the promise he made as broken. I had always assumed he kept his promise to Lyanna (whether that was keeping Jon or not), but did he break that promise? Did he break it when he went down south and let Jon join the Night's Watch? What do you think?

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In the chapter where Ned Stark is imprisoned in the dungeon of the Red Keep at the end of AGoT, he thinks of Lyanna, Rhaegar, the bed of blood and all that - but I noticed he thinks of the promise he made as broken. I had always assumed he kept his promise to Lyanna (whether that was keeping Jon or not), but did he break that promise? Did he break it when he went down south and let Jon join the Night's Watch? What do you think?

Well, if that's the first place in the book where Ned considers his promise broken, then, IMO, his promise may have been twofold (with regards to L+R=J): protect Jon's secret at all costs, and reveal it to him one day (when he is old enough)... which may account for Ned having allowing Jon to take the black, so he could pose no real threat to the current Baratheon reign (as if he would anyway).

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"When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises."

Perhaps he's thinking of a promise he made to Lyanna and didn't keep, although we more often find him thinking of his promises and the price he's paid to keep them. He could be thinking of the loyalty he owes to Robert, his king and friend. If R+L=J, he's harboring a Targaryen male. We know that he told Robert that Lyanna was dead (this is when they repaired their friendship after their disagreement over the fate of Elia's children). What did he tell Robert about her death? Surely not that there was a child, if there was one.

And he may feel that, by raising Jon, not telling Catelyn who Jon's mother is, and therefore allowing her to think he loves this mysterious woman than Cat, that he broke his marriage vows.

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I have a question: On p. 331 of the American paperback of GoT, Catelyn tells Tyrion, "Petyr Baelish loved me once. He was only a boy. His passion was a tragedy for all of us, but it was real, and pure, and nothing to be made mock of. He wanted my hand."

A tragedy? And who are "all of us"? (Slight spoiler from SoS below)

This is before she realizes that Petyr impregnated Lysa and her father gave Lysa tansy tea to abort the child. There was a duel between Brandon and Petyr shortly before Cat and Brandon were to marry and Petyr was wounded, but he has obviously recovered. So why does she consider this a "tragedy"? The duel was around the time that Lyanna disappeared and Brandon and his squires rode to King's Landing a few days before he was to be married to call Rhaegar out. THAT was certainly a tragedy . . . but is there any connection there to Petyr that Cat would be aware of?

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I have a question: On p. 331 of the American paperback of GoT, Catelyn tells Tyrion, "Petyr Baelish loved me once. He was only a boy. His passion was a tragedy for all of us, but it was real, and pure, and nothing to be made mock of. He wanted my hand."

A tragedy? And who are "all of us"? (Slight spoiler from SoS below)

This is before she realizes that Petyr impregnated Lysa and her father gave Lysa tansy tea to abort the child. There was a duel between Brandon and Petyr shortly before Cat and Brandon were to marry and Petyr was wounded, but he has obviously recovered. So why does she consider this a "tragedy"? The duel was around the time that Lyanna disappeared and Brandon and his squires rode to King's Landing a few days before he was to be married to call Rhaegar out. THAT was certainly a tragedy . . . but is there any connection there to Petyr that Cat would be aware of?

I always took it that the tragedy was that Petyr was shamed and Cat and Lysa lost their best friend when he was sent away. I also probably didn't help that Brandon and Petyr were fighting over Cat (which i'm sure made Lysa very jealous)

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Following up on TRF, it seems that the tragedy is that it marked the sudden end of what sounds like a reasonably happy childhood, at least from Cat's perspective. Petyr was sent away, and Cat would have noticed that his dismissal had some effect on Lysa (and perhaps even Edmure, who if I recall correctly had squired for Brandon and thus won Petyr's hatred).

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Great idea for a thread.

In the chapter where Ned Stark is imprisoned in the dungeon of the Red Keep at the end of AGoT, he thinks of Lyanna, Rhaegar, the bed of blood and all that - but I noticed he thinks of the promise he made as broken. I had always assumed he kept his promise to Lyanna (whether that was keeping Jon or not), but did he break that promise? Did he break it when he went down south and let Jon join the Night's Watch? What do you think?

It's funny, we are actually discussing that quote this week in the Jon's Parentage Re-Read. Here is the post in tJ'sPR-R thread 1 where I bring up the quote. Discussion continues into tJ'sPR-R thread 2 here.

I have a question: On p. 331 of the American paperback of GoT, Catelyn tells Tyrion, "Petyr Baelish loved me once. He was only a boy. His passion was a tragedy for all of us, but it was real, and pure, and nothing to be made mock of. He wanted my hand."

A tragedy? And who are "all of us"? (Slight spoiler from SoS below)

This is before she realizes that Petyr impregnated Lysa and her father gave Lysa tansy tea to abort the child. There was a duel between Brandon and Petyr shortly before Cat and Brandon were to marry and Petyr was wounded, but he has obviously recovered. So why does she consider this a "tragedy"? The duel was around the time that Lyanna disappeared and Brandon and his squires rode to King's Landing a few days before he was to be married to call Rhaegar out. THAT was certainly a tragedy . . . but is there any connection there to Petyr that Cat would be aware of?

Petyr had slept with Lysa already. He thought Catelyn had given him her virginity so he was honor-bound to fight for her hand. Petyr was disgraced after the fight. Lysa had to get an abortion because of that. That's all I can think of.

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Petyr had slept with Lysa already. He thought Catelyn had given him her virginity so he was honor-bound to fight for her hand. Petyr was disgraced after the fight. Lysa had to get an abortion because of that. That's all I can think of.

Cat didn't know about the abortion, and didn't find out until much later (in ASOS itself). Therefore she can't have been referring to that when she mentioned tragedy.

I also doubt she knew about Lysa making Petyr think - or permitting him to believe - that Petyr'd taken Cat's virginity. (Cat probably knew or could have guessed about Petyr sleeping with Lysa.)

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Well, LF was still disgraced I guess.

Maybe Shewoman is right and LF led to Brandon's death. Though I think that would have been mentioned more.

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I've wondered before now whether LF was the mysterious person who told Brandon that Lyanna had been kidnapped (rather than throwing her bonnet over the windmill), thereby precipitating the degree of messiness to which Robert's Rebellion descended. It connects neatly to the LF-is-the-cause-of-everything-going-wrong crackpot theory, which I espouse.

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It connects neatly to the LF-is-the-cause-of-everything-going-wrong crackpot theory, which I espouse.

I must warn you that Ran and KAH's Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory failed. Basically, it said that LF sent the assassin to Bran.

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IF Lyanna vanished from the north on her own, I find it hard to believe she wouldn't have left a message for her family to let them know she was all right. If she did leave such a message, it doesn't seem to have been delivered.

Littlefinger was injured in his duel with Brandon at Riverrun and my impression was that he was bedridden there for awhile; that would seem to suggest that he wouldn't have been up and around, intercepting messages and encouraging Brandon to think the worst. But he certainly had a grudge against Brandon--two, in fact: Brandon was marrying Cat and Brandon wounded him. It seems likely that if Lyanna left a message, it would be at Winterfell rather than Riverrun (which, I believe, is where Brandon was when Lyanna took off). I suppose it's possible that on her way south she left a message for her brother at his fiancee's home.

This is all probably silly. It just seemed to me that Cat's word "tragedy" to describe the outcome of Petyr's love for her was a bit overblown, since as far as I can tell all that happened was a duel in which Petyr received an injury from which he recovered fully. The fact that that duel was around the time of Lyanna's disappearance just seemed . . . well . . . suggestive. I can see Petyr being savvy enough to know 1) how Brandon would react if he heard that Rhaegar had taken Lyanna, and 2) how Aerys would react to Brandon's reaction.

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LF had to be 15-16 years old at the time. Although Catelyn describes him as clever and quick even then, I don't think he had a hand in that. But then again... stranger things have happened.

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Quick question, when Sansa builds the snow castle in one of her last (or is it the last) chapters in A Storm of Swords, do you see this as symbolism for the reconstruction of Winterfell or is it a gloomy symbolism for its destruction? Also, is there anyone else in the courtyard except Sansa and Littlefinger in this chapter?

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Quick question, when Sansa builds the snow castle in one of her last (or is it the last) chapters in A Storm of Swords, do you see this as symbolism for the reconstruction of Winterfell or is it a gloomy symbolism for its destruction? Also, is there anyone else in the courtyard except Sansa and Littlefinger in this chapter?

Hmmm, I don't know. If anyone is going to rebuild Winterfell I would think it would be Bran (Brandon the Builder and all). And it had already been destroyed. I think the scene was mainly there to piss Lysa off. SweetRobin arrives in the courtyard. There may be guards or something.

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Allright thanks. I wasn't aware of any threads about the symbolism of "the snow fell and the castle rose", even though it seems quite obvious to me to be some sort of metaphor or allegory or ..something

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IF Lyanna vanished from the north on her own, I find it hard to believe she wouldn't have left a message for her family to let them know she was all right. If she did leave such a message, it doesn't seem to have been delivered.

Littlefinger was injured in his duel with Brandon at Riverrun and my impression was that he was bedridden there for awhile; that would seem to suggest that he wouldn't have been up and around, intercepting messages and encouraging Brandon to think the worst. But he certainly had a grudge against Brandon--two, in fact: Brandon was marrying Cat and Brandon wounded him. It seems likely that if Lyanna left a message, it would be at Winterfell rather than Riverrun (which, I believe, is where Brandon was when Lyanna took off). I suppose it's possible that on her way south she left a message for her brother at his fiancee's home.

This is all probably silly. It just seemed to me that Cat's word "tragedy" to describe the outcome of Petyr's love for her was a bit overblown, since as far as I can tell all that happened was a duel in which Petyr received an injury from which he recovered fully. The fact that that duel was around the time of Lyanna's disappearance just seemed . . . well . . . suggestive. I can see Petyr being savvy enough to know 1) how Brandon would react if he heard that Rhaegar had taken Lyanna, and 2) how Aerys would react to Brandon's reaction.

Although that's possible i doubt that is what Catelyn is referring to. If she knew that she wouldn't have been so cordial with LF upon their meeting, especially with her love of Brandon's brother and the Stark family now.

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Lord Hoster was still bellyaching about LF on his deathbed (that stripling!). I think the whole business was somewhat scandalous for the Tullys, though fairly insignificant to everyone else, especially compared to the Rhaegar and Lyanna scandal.

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