BAKKER IX: Warrior-Prophet reread

[delete this account pls]

Shimeh is obviously Jerusalem.

The Vulgar Holy War and it's annihilation pretty much mirrors the People's crusade and it's destruction.

The Battle of Mengedda has some similarities with Dorylaeum, where the elements of the First Crusade became seperated and were attacked, before managing to reunite and win a victory.

I agree that Nilnamesh seems more Indian, based on what we've heard. Zeum seems to be more the Africa analogue, or perhaps China.

The relatively recent establishment of the Norsirai kingdoms as powers in the Three Seas reflects the emergence of the peoples the Byzantines collectively called Franks.

Getting more specific to the First crusade, Saubon seems to be based on Bohemond of Taranto. Bohemond was a Norman prince from southern Italy who'd warred recently against the Byzantines just as Saubon warred against the Nansurim. Bohemond was a key figure in capturing Antioch, events which Saubon practically mirrors in capturing Caraskand, and Bohemond claimed Antioch as his own just as Saubon claims Caraskand. Lastly Bohemond had a young nephew, Tancred, who quickly gained a reputation during the Crusade as an excellent warrior and scout, very similar to Saubon's nephew Athjeari.

There's some noteable differences also. Nansur tends more towards Byzantium than Rome as far as the role both played in the First crusade and Holy War respectively, as well as their relationship with the 'heathen' peoples, but Militarily, the Byzantines by the time of the First Crusade weren't as organised or professional as the Nansur army, which is definitely a lot closer to the Roman Imperial model, though Xerius' Eothic Guard made up solely of Norsirai, is probably meant to mirror the Byzantine Emperor's Varangian Guard, which was composed of Anglo Saxon mercenaries displaced from England after the Norman Conquest.

Another difference is between the Fanim and the Islamic states of the First crusade. The Fanim are a lot more united and organised than the Seljuk Turks were at the time of the First Crusade.

And of course, the First crusade didn't have quite as much funky crow sex.

[Shryke]

And of course, the First crusade didn't have quite as much funky crow sex.

And that, my friend, is a fairly simple summation of why History is boring.

[Slick Mongoose]

It all brings up the question of what parallels will be used in the future. Napoleon's invasion of Russia for the march on Golgotterath?

[Red Sun]

I guess the Scylvendi are supposed to be a blend of all those Eurasian nomads that invaded parts of Europe, probably with the Mongols being the strongest influence. Their culture is too generic "nomad warriors" to really say that they are based on one specific culture.

Re Nansur: I said that in a previous thread, they are a sort of caricature of Byzantium. Their portrayal follows more the mis- and preconceptions of the Latin Christians, i. e. the antigreek propaganda picture, than being a realistic portrayal of the real Byzantine empire.

Regarding the female characters, I just want to say that I more or less agree with Stranger. Esmenet is an interesting and strong character, and I can even see a point in Serwe's character. (If people tell you that you are worthless you start believing it.) But they are more or less the only distinct, individual female characters, while there are much more distinct, individual male characters. The empress is not even a real human being.

[Shryke]

Regarding the female characters, I just want to say that I more or less agree with Stranger. Esmenet is an interesting and strong character, and I can even see a point in Serwe's character. (If people tell you that you are worthless you start believing it.) But they are more or less the only distinct, individual female characters, while there are much more distinct, individual male characters. The empress is not even a real human being.

There's not that many more distint, individual male characters.

Kelhuss, Cnauir, Achamian, Proyas, Saubon, The Emperor, his nephew.

And really, given the setting and the area we're focused on (an army on the march), there's not much room for ANY meaningful women characters.

[Happy Ent]

But they are more or less the only distinct, individual female characters, while there are much more distinct, individual male characters. The empress is not even a real human being.

That is obvious. Just like there are very few children POVs, except for those that get raped by mutated birds or sold into slavery. Also, there are almost no POVs from the large demographic of the infirm and the old. We who are not born into aristocracy (and that means the majority of readers) have only three characters to identify with: Achamian, Serwë, and Esmenet, the only caste-menials in the book. Caste-merchants are completely absent.

While these observations are correct, it is unclear if you mean them as criticism or as self-evident observation.

Would you agree to the following statement: Bakker goes out of his way to introduce female characters far beyond what would be expected from a novel is basically a pastiche of the first crusade, to the point of suspending disbelief about the existence of extremely intelligent and powerful women in a pre-modern environment? If not, what would you want changed?

[Happy Ent]

(Later comment)

Actually, folks, let me stop debating this. I'm tired of this topic — these books are great and have lots and lots of interesting things in them. I'm sorry to see yet another thread go south because of what I consider a futile and ill-defined discussion.

Others can continue on this thread, but I'll respond no more.

Now, how who can tell me what historical army the Conryians are modelled on?

[Happy Ent]

double post because board went crazy

[Happy Ent]

(double post because board went crazy)

[Happy Ent]

double post because board went crazy

[koudoulis]

i will not buy this thread, it is full of trees

[salinea]

I love it when people raise up a subject in order to ridicule the people opposing another point of view, and the first time someone raises serious argument of the opposite, they claim to be tired of the discussion

These books are great. That doesn't mean they're perfect or that nothing about them can be criticized.

[.H.]

Now, how who can tell me what historical army the Conryians are modelled on?

Although i'm having a hard time finding a concrete reference to back this up, iirc they have a lot of knights (used both mounted and unmounted, as men-at-arms) which to me seems a lot like the French.

[Happy Ent]

I love it when people raise up a subject in order to ridicule the people opposing another point of view, and the first time someone raises serious argument of the opposite, they claim to be tired of the discussion

If that was directed at me: use the search function. I've discussed this topics in a handful of threads already — it's not as if I'm afraid of the subject.

My motivation for starting this very thread was something else, yet I saw myself (again) entangled in an argument that (though I feel strongly about it) I don't think I've got anything to add to. So I'll politely bow out of the debate. Others are free to continue it.

[salinea]

I don't know if you're afraid, but you bowed out as soon as someone answered it, even though you were the one to raise it up in the first place.

yeah, it sure is a shame how the Bakker threads never last long.

[Mackaxx]

Nice high horse you have there. This gender bollocks has been discussed ad naseum in other threads and whats been brought to the table here is nothing new at all. The use the search function advice is good. If you want to hang your opinion hat on one issue alone then thats great, start a thread about it if you like. No ones stated that they dont want to continue talking about a particular issue before so this isnt a common even as you seem to be infering. It appears to be more of a genuine effort to stop things getting bogged down in a bit of a quagmire.

Fair point though that this issue was raised in the first place, but no ones telling you not to respond, just that the main re reader isnt going to be bothered with anything thats not particularly new ground in respect to this issue. Post all you want.

[delete this account pls]

I don't think Conriya is really France. Conriyans are Ketyai, and it's a successor nation of a much older empire. A France analogue would be one of the Norsirai nations.

Don't Conriyans wear masks in battle? that might point us in the right direction. The only other facts I can remember off the top of my head is that Conriya styles itself as the inheritor of the Shiradi Empire, which was the power in the eastern Three Seas at the time of the Apocalypse.

[Happy Ent]

even though you were the one to raise it up in the first place.

And I sincerely apologise for that. I was excited about the book and started this thread with a quite a few quotes and a variety of topics, and only later realised that one of these topics wouldn't actually benefit from my attention. I caught myself entangled in a line of argumentation that I felt I had followed repeatedly, and decided to stop right there. A better person than myself would have predicted this from the original post, so – as I said – in hindsight I'm sorry to have brought it up in the first place. I simply try to avoid being ruled by what came before.

[Red Sun]

I don't want to derail the thread, but

Would you agree to the following statement: Bakker goes out of his way to introduce female characters far beyond what would be expected from a novel is basically a pastiche of the first crusade, to the point of suspending disbelief about the existence of extremely intelligent and powerful women in a pre-modern environment? If not, what would you want changed?

I agree, but only because, unfortunately, realistic female characters are so rare in fantasy, and the inclusion of a character like Esmenet does raise Bakker's works above average.

I just don't think that her character needs so much suspension of disbelief. Esmenet's intelligence and power comes from her life experience, having a good insight into people', i. e. men's behaviour, and taking up as much knowledge as she can are her survival strategies. So, it's not so much of a stretch that she has these capacieites. Women like her did exist in pre-modern times. I also wanted to add that women (not only as prostitutes) and even older children did take part in the crusades, so it's not a total stretch that a "pastiche" of the first crusade would include female characters. (It would also have been fine if he had created a Anna Komnena-like figure, but I don't hold the non-existence against him.)

Generally, I think that Bakker's society is more a pastiche of a medieval society than a re-creation, because he only shows certain aspects and highlights their negative consequences. The differences between Nansur and the real Byzantium are just one example, the treatment of the women's role in society is another one. However, I have not so much problems with this creative license, it's a novel, after all.

ETA: I just wanted to second what Azor Ahai said about Theodora who was the daughter of a circus artist, being good example for a women like Esmenet.

[salinea]

And I sincerely apologise for that.

Okay.

I'm in the middle of a reread of Thouthandfold thoughts and pretty excited about it myself. It is nice to see threads about those books. And it is nice to see that one's thoughts are welcome to a discussion about it.