BAKKER IX: Warrior-Prophet reread

[.H.]

I don't think Conriya is really France. Conriyans are Ketyai, and it's a successor nation of a much older empire. A France analogue would be one of the Norsirai nations.

Don't Conriyans wear masks in battle? that might point us in the right direction. The only other facts I can remember off the top of my head is that Conriya styles itself as the inheritor of the Shiradi Empire, which was the power in the eastern Three Seas at the time of the Apocalypse.

Well, yes, from a cultural standpoint i can see how an analogue to France could be poor. But then again the Gauls view as bearers of the Western Roman Empire could be a possible view of it, but i'm 100% sure of that.

But every part i could find with a description of them fighting Bakker mentions a good deal of mounted knights and unmounted knights supporting what i would imagine would be pike formations (or other heavy infantry). This seem pretty in line with France's army circa 1400, at least as far as my limited knowledge puts it.

I need to learn a bit more about France at this time though to say more definitively.

[Happy Ent]

Here are some plot holes to rationalise:

Why didn't the Consult replace Chep (the Ainoni King-regent who is really a skin spy) when he was afflicted with hemoplexy outside Caraskand? When he finally dies (after days, mabe weeks, or sickness) his face falls open for all to see. This seems awfully sloppy, and given the relative ease with which a skin spy later steals away Cnaiür from Conphas' prison it should be feasible to perform a switch.

If Kellhus's death was so terrible for Akka, why didn't he just sneak his way to Umiaki (using his "walk the shadows" spell) blast a nice circle of death around Kellhus, take him off the circumfix, and walk out? I know there are Chorae-bearing Shrial knights around, but it seems to be worth the risk? (Counterargument: who knows if Akka wouldn't have done just that after his failed attempt to convince the Great Names.)

Please explain Maithanet's letter to Prince Proyas. Suggestion: Moe wants Kelly to learn the Gnosis from Akka. So he instructs Maithanet to instruct Proyas to assist Akka so that... well, I don't quite get it.

Apparently the Cishaurim are seeing Akka (and Xin) walk back to Caraskand "though the shadows", but they don't react. Is this also by Moe's instruction?

[.H.]

Here are some plot holes to rationalise:

Why didn't the Consult replace Chep (the Ainoni King-regent who is really a skin spy) when he was afflicted with hemoplexy outside Caraskand? When he finally dies (after days, mabe weeks, or sickness) his face falls open for all to see. This seems awfully sloppy, and given the relative ease with which a skin spy later steals away Cnaiür from Conphas' prison it should be feasible to perform a switch.

Possibly they don't have a replacement lined up quickly enough. There must be a finite number of them, and chances are good that any 'replacements' would need to be reapportioned. Perhaps this couldn't be arranged quickly enough. Surely skin spies aren't cheap or plentiful, so it doesn't seem likely that there would be abundant reserves.

But you point is well taken, it seems a bit of a stretch that there wasn't a skin spy in a lower ranking position that could have just disappeared to cover a much more important role.

[delete this account pls]

Here are some plot holes to rationalise:

Why didn't the Consult replace Chep (the Ainoni King-regent who is really a skin spy) when he was afflicted with hemoplexy outside Caraskand? When he finally dies (after days, mabe weeks, or sickness) his face falls open for all to see. This seems awfully sloppy, and given the relative ease with which a skin spy later steals away Cnaiür from Conphas' prison it should be feasible to perform a switch.

Maybe they didn't think he would die? They might have thought skin spies were immune to normal diseases. That seems a little unlikely though, the skin spies have been active for a few hundred years and surely one of them has fallen sick at some point.

Maybe Chep was too closely watched? Priests and Scarlet Schoolmen around him 24/7.

Apparently the Cishaurim are seeing Akka (and Xin) walk back to Caraskand "though the shadows", but they don't react. Is this also by Moe's instruction?

I wasn't sure how clearly the Cishaurim 'saw' them, actually. Like, maybe they sensed their presence but couldn't pinpoint it exactly, more that they were just aware of someone nearby using sorcery to disguise themselves.

The Moenghus explanation makes sense though.

[JGP]

Didn't get to read WP this weekend. Not because I didn't want to but because I finished Inside Straight and Last Dragon. So, no chance to determine what those broken pieces of Cnaiur's were. I'll get to it at some point this week.

To the discussion regarding which culture is similar to what, the Scylvendi reminded me of the Scythians even though the latter was a broadly applied moniker in antiquity. Both tribal horse/pony cultures, although the Scylvendi didn't use some of the horrendously poisoned arrows that the Scythians purportedly employed. There's definitely some Mongol influence upon the Scylvendi culture too. Bakker's taken bits of this and pieces of that to create something of his own, so it's hard to state any absolute correlation.

The Nansur struck me as an amalgamation of the Macedonians [Philip and Alexander's only, however] and the Byzantines. The Byzantines for reasons already listed inthread, the Macedonians because they had to deal with various unruly tribes on their borderlands before Philip and then Alexander finally dealt with them. As well, the Black Sun of the Nansur is similar to an inversion of the eight rayed star of the Macedonian Royal House.

And then there's Conphas himself who, to me anyway, seems a recognizable parallel of Alexander. The supreme confidence in his martial, strategic and tactical abilities, the arrogance of his innate character- thinking he is a God, as opposed to letting others believe it in Alexander’s case, and so on.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Does anyone think Bakker tried to make any kind of analogy for the Dunyain?

Bene Gesserit

[Besselfunction]

Does anyone think Bakker tried to make any kind of analogy for the Dunyain?

I always thought they were the result of philosophical considerations (a manifestation of Nietzsches Ãœbermensch).

[His Dudeness]

It's been awhile since I've read TPoN: I saw parallels between the Conriyans and the Carolingians.

[.H.]

It's been awhile since I've read TPoN: I saw parallels between the Conriyans and the Carolingians.

Glad it wasn't just me,

Could someone trow me a page reference on Maithanet's letter to Proyas?

[Anomandaris Dragnipurake]

Was that in TTT or TWP?

Another Maithanet related question. So in the first book, he recognizes Akka as one of the few. But does he himself have any grasp of the gnosis, the anagogis, or the psuhke via Moenghus? Or does he basically have the potential but it remains uncultivated?

Second variant; he is not a sorcerer but could be one with training.

[Happy Ent]

On to TTT.

Here's a recurring question of mine that still puzzles me: why does Granny Ikurei let herself be fondled by Xerius.

It's a great scene: The Emperor overlooks the Meneanor, having just received news that Connie has been forced to leave the Holy War at Carascand and awaits transportation at Jokhta. Obviously, he is very, very pleased; the plan being to use the fleet to send even more Columnaries to Xerash instead of shipping his nephew's army back. I night for desserts, indeed.

(I love reading Xerius's POVs. He's such a mess.)

Then Granny comes to see him because she really wants to know what's going on. Granny is a Consult spy, after all. The fate of the Holy War is important to the Consult, since they want to destroy whatever power it is in Shimeh that "outs" their skin-spies. On a whim, Xerius pushes granny to the bed and starts groping. She-male surprise! Then, Hell breaks loose; exit Xerius.

Did the skin-spy just go bonkers? It seems a major Consult blunder. Techne-Istriya knows that Xerius and Conphas plan to betray the Holy War, so why is it in her interest to (1) expose herself and (2) make Conphas king? Should she not rather have resisted Xerius's advances and continued playing her game?

[koudoulis]

if you think it that way its certainly a blunder. we know the techne creatures are in turmoil with their passions so maybe this one got carried away. however the chain of events from xerius death, conphas ascend to the throne and his betrayal of the holy war saved the day in Shimeh but thats a veeery long shot even for kehlus to predict , not the consult. also the nansur empire would be devastated at the moment if there wasnt a new High King

however the consult has erred before and its safe to assume the same.

ps. i changed my reasoning twice as i wrote that,i dont think i came to a sound conclusion but, god i love these books!

[Harren the Black]

Well, it seemed, as we see from the conversations of the Synthese with Cnaiur later on, that at that point the Consult still wanted the Holy War to succeed, even with the danger of Kellhus rising, so that they can destroy/learn about the power in Shimeh that can see their skinspies (I'm not sure if at the time of the assassination of Xerius, the Consult have already learned about Moenghus through Kellhus, or if this still has to happen)

Since the skinspy posing as the Empress cannot change Xerius' mind on the fate of the Holy war, I think that one reason for the Consult to assassinate of Xerius could be that this would force Conphas to come back to Momemn to ensure his succession goes well. Conphas himself thinks about this, I believe.

But because he learned, through Cememketri, that there are no major problems back home of other pretenders to the throne, he can continue his attack against Holy War.

Or it could just have been a blunder...

if you think it that way its certainly a blunder. we know the techne creatures are in turmoil with their passions so maybe this one got carried away. however the chain of events from xerius death, conphas ascend to the throne and his betrayal of the holy war saved the day in Shimeh but thats a veeery long shot even for kehlus to predict , not the consult. also the nansur empire would be devastated at the moment if there wasnt a new High King

however the consult has erred before and its safe to assume the same.

ps. i changed my reasoning twice as i wrote that,i dont think i came to a sound conclusion but, god i love these books!

[JGP]

Did the skin-spy just go bonkers? It seems a major Consult blunder. Techne-Istriya knows that Xerius and Conphas plan to betray the Holy War, so why is it in her interest to (1) expose herself and (2) make Conphas king? Should she not rather have resisted Xerius's advances and continued playing her game?

I was puzzled by that as well. I remember thinking that the Consult must've thought it somehow to their advantage to have Conphas become Emperor of the Nansurium perhaps, with his being kind of outside of Kellhus's abilities to entirely discern. Kind of weak reasoning, come to think of it. I just don't know.

What struck me as rather incongruent was how Moe might've be outing the skin-spies in Shimeh. The fool of a Dûnyain had no eyes with which to see. If he could see well enough with his snakes, then why was his giving up his sight as much a limitation as Kellhus intimated?

[Happy Ent]

What struck me as rather incongruent was how Moe might've be outing the skin-spies in Shimeh. The fool of a Dûnyain had no eyes with which to see. If he could see well enough with his snakes, then why was his giving up his sight as much a limitation as Kellhus intimated?

They talk about that. Moe uses inconsistency of speech patterns to recognise the skin spies(!) That's a much less effective technique, of course. Also, he may have had Maithanet's help for a long while, and the Shria isn't blind.

[JGP]

They talk about that. Moe uses inconsistency of speech patterns to recognise the skin spies(!) That's a much less effective technique, of course. Also, he may have had Maithanet's help for a long while, and the Shria isn't blind.

Hmmn.

Ok, I'll buy that.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I also have always thought that Consult decided to eliminate Xerius, because they wanted Holy War to succeed and eliminate Moenghus who was able to detect skin-spies. IIRC, even later on, after Kellhus' capaqbilities became known to them, they still considered Moenghus bigger threat.

[JGP]

You sure about that? I would think that once they get interested in Kellhus, they get real interested. I got the impression from the "Who are the Dunyain?" chapter near the end of TWP that it's due to Kellhus that they are suddenly so curious.

Which in itself raises some interesting questions:

i. were the Consult as determined to find out about whatever was behind the extermination of their skin spies in Shimeh?

ii. if not, why not? They certainly couldn't have thought it an anomaly.

iii. is it because Moe decided not to risk tipping his hand to the Consult, as opposed to Kellhus?

iv. does this indicate Moe's conditioned abilities are possibly beyond those of his son?

v. if so or if not, why did he blind himself?

vi. why did he blind himself?

vii. why?

[Shryke]

Right until the end, and maybe even then, they still think it's the Psukhe that's exposing their skin spies. They don't imagine the possibility of the Dunyain. They don't even know wtf they are. At least, until they get some of it out of Cnauir.

[JGP]

Right until the end, and maybe even then, they still think it's the Psukhe that's exposing their skin spies. They don't imagine the possibility of the Dunyain. They don't even know wtf they are. At least, until they get some of it out of Cnauir.

But they should know what the Psukhe is capable and not capable of, should they not, in a world where age is power?