BAKKER IX: Warrior-Prophet reread

[JGP]

This confirms to me that there was nothing Moënghus could learn.

Curious. This scene in particular precisely exemplifies the heart of my issues with how Bakker has chosen to explain the choices of Moënghus.

Three books, and it's this passage only [re: Kell and Moë's meeting] that Bakker can truly show us how far Kellhus has surpassed his conditioning. The author does so by a device of contrast, son against father. The snare Bakker slips his foot into, is that in order for this to be distinctive Moënghus must be cast as a prototypical model, a true Dûnyain, through and through. Which, in my opinion, doesn't jive with the choices Moë has made.

At all.

I am more than willing to drop it, however. My satisfaction does not demand the dissatisfaction of others.

[Happy Ent]

I am more than willing to drop it, however. My satisfaction does not demand the dissatisfaction of others.

No-no! I'm getting a lot out of your contributions. Please keep it up!

[JGP]

Couldn't it be said though that Moenghus ceased to be a typical Dunyain upon his banishment and subsequent travels accross Earwa?

My point exactly, but this is never said or acknowledged. In all thoughts, reflections, opinions, and so on, Kellhus always refers to the Dûnyain as seen in general through the lens of his father. Kellhus doesn't reflect or comment upon Moë being anything other than... merely Dûnyain.

Doesn't even accuse him of having been unbalanced by the vagaries of the world, as his father did him.

Couldn't it also be said that Kellhus having surpassed the Dunyain level could be due to a superior intellect (even for a Dunyain) coupled with learning the Gnosis?

Contributing factors, certainly.

I think what I'm trying to say is that Moe's actions don't have to be that of a typical Dunyain in order to demonstrate the rise of Kellhus.

I think they do, otherwise we have no real frame of reference since Kellhus begins to diverge from his conditioning the moment he sets foot in Earwa. But as I've been failing spectacularly to say, Moë's actions are not those of a Dûnyain in full possession of his faculties-- yet Bakker would have us believe it so via the conclusions of Kellhus. I mean, if Moë's become unbalanced, then there's no reason to believe that all Dûnyain will follow the same path, is there.

Not when the steppe is trackless.

Regardless, huge props to Bakker. He's one of the few authors who actually engages me on multiple levels.

[elmis]

Using this old thread to say that I've finished reading The Warrior-Prophet (didn't want to start a new thread). Liked the book over all, but I still have some issues with Kellhus. Mainly the "ubermench" stuff. I can't really shake it.

Found the ripping the heart out of his own body to be a little odd, until I read that he held Sërve's heart (digression: I still would have liked it if Cnaiür had just killed her the moment he found out Kellhus was banging her - for me, that would have seemed more in character for him to do). I suspect that has something to do with The Thousandfold Thought. That he is everything, and everything is him.

Loved to see Akka dig deep and rely on his Mandate training (not just the Gnosis, but the real training of his dreams). Shame if Iyokus is the only Sorcerer we'll see who masters the Daimos - that seemed interesting.

[Tears of Lys]

I totally agree. Bakker is not perfect, but the things that are cool about Prince of Nothing are beyond cool. I can't wait for the next book.

Sorry to re-hash an old debate but I really believe Kellhus has mostly good intentions. So many people think he's the Anti-Christ but I think he has identified The Consult as the ultimate threat and is preparing himself to combat them. But Akka, who is our protagonist in chief hates Kellhus now. I can't wait to see how this plays out.

I think there's a chance, albeit a small one, that they reconcile.

In rereading The Thousandfold Thought, I become more and more convinced that Kellhus' intentions ARE mostly

good. "Good" in that his intention is to defeat the Consult. While doing so, his methods strike us as manipulative and repulsive in how he coldly uses people as tools, which plays into the ambiguous nature of Bakker's story. In one of the few last glimpses into Kellhus' mind, specifically when he meets his father, (trying not to spoil here), I felt it was made plain what he thinks of the inevitable end of his father's version of TTT.

Do we have a TTT thread somewhere? My searching powers seem to be lacking.