Is Benjen Stark Alive?

[Nation70]

Benjen is alive. If he was dead, we'd have seen a body by now. He's definitely not Coldhands.

I'd like to believe he's the hooded man, but somehow I doubt it.

I have a gut feeling that Benjen will be the redemption for the Starks and secure Winterfell for his nephews. Who greater a person for the North to rally around than Ned's brother.

It's getting him out of the NW that will be the tricky part.

Crazy theory, maybe before he was sent to the wall, he got married and has a child hanging out in the North. Unlikely, but would be pretty nice to start rebuilding the Starks.

[Jon Snows Ghost]

so here's the thing, I'm doing a re-read of ACoK and there's this scene where the NW men are camping on the Fist of the First men. Lord Mormont and Jon are having this conversation about Benjen and here's the dialogue:

in case the theory that the Bloodraven wargs LC Mormont's raven is true, then this raven knows something. And our dear uncle is dead. Or as dead as Othor was anyway....

I subscribe to this theory...I just re-read this last night and it stuck out like a sore thumb. That's why a re-read is a must for this series. I was going to start a thread about this but did not want to steal anyone's thunder so I searched the forum first.

You're right "that raven knows something".

[God_made_me_do_it]

I absolutely believe he is Coldhands. I won't subscribe to the whole "GRR MARTIN IS TOO CLEVER FOR US!!1" because he's also a writer, and a good one. It's enough of a mystery currently to be interesting but it absolutely makes sense in terms of a good story. Furthermore it makes logical sense - look at the facts;

1. He's "missing" and we have no idea where.

2. His companions were found dead and became white walkers.

3. The cache of dragonglass on the hill of the first men was left by a ranger.

4. The children of the forest traditionally gave a gift of dragonglass to the rangers, this was clearly that gift and proves that at some point in recent history rangers found the greenseers.

5. Coldhands is in the employ of the children of the forest/greenseers. Very likely given the above that they saved him and he became coldhands.

6. Benjen Stark would have the motivation to save any other Stark. This makes him a perfect candidate for 'converting' a white walker to their cause, when that cause is clearly to save an important Stark.

7. Bran never sees Coldhands' face. Furthermore if his hands have gone black it was probably too decayed or changed to be recognisable anyway.

[Naathi Prince]

I absolutely believe he is Coldhands. I won't subscribe to the whole "GRR MARTIN IS TOO CLEVER FOR US!!1" because he's also a writer, and a good one. It's enough of a mystery currently to be interesting but it absolutely makes sense in terms of a good story. Furthermore it makes logical sense - look at the facts;

1. He's "missing" and we have no idea where.

2. His companions were found dead and became white walkers.

3. The cache of dragonglass on the hill of the first men was left by a ranger.

4. The children of the forest traditionally gave a gift of dragonglass to the rangers, this was clearly that gift and proves that at some point in recent history rangers found the greenseers.

5. Coldhands is in the employ of the children of the forest/greenseers. Very likely given the above that they saved him and he became coldhands.

6. Benjen Stark would have the motivation to save any other Stark. This makes him a perfect candidate for 'converting' a white walker to their cause, when that cause is clearly to save an important Stark.

7. Bran never sees Coldhands' face. Furthermore if his hands have gone black it was probably too decayed or changed to be recognisable anyway.

1. how does any of this explain why a 200 year old would say "he died long ago" about a guy missing for two years?

2. His companions did not become "white walkers" they became wights.

3. Whichs shows Coldhands=Benjen how?

4. ? not evidence once again

5. Again, not evidence

6. Coldhands works for the CotF? They want to bring Bran to Bloodraven, that is their motivation.

7. Not evidence

[God_made_me_do_it]

1. how does any of this explain why a 200 year old would say "he died long ago" about a guy missing for two years?

2. His companions did not become "white walkers" they became wights.

3. Whichs shows Coldhands=Benjen how?

4. ? not evidence once again

5. Again, not evidence

6. Coldhands works for the CotF? They want to bring Bran to Bloodraven, that is their motivation.

7. Not evidence

1. 2 years IS 'long ago' to an 11yr old Boy. "long ago" is far too subjective a term to make any assumption on.

2. I thought wights were the same thing, I meant wights anyway.

3-7 ARE all compelling evidence, for either character motivation or storytelling, because together they add up. They're a combination of facts that suggest the possibility of Coldhands being Benjen Stark. I mean really how close to spelling it out can the author get?

[Ghost Rider]

Captive of the White Walkers?

I wonder whether they take captives, but it seems unlikely, since they killed Waymar Royce who would have made a fine captive too.

1. 2 years IS 'long ago' to an 11yr old Boy. "long ago" is far too subjective a term to make any assumption on.

2. I thought wights were the same thing, I meant wights anyway.

3-7 ARE all compelling evidence, for either character motivation or storytelling, because together they add up. They're a combination of facts that suggest the possibility of Coldhands being Benjen Stark. I mean really how close to spelling it out can the author get?

The CH = Benjen theory comes down to: a man went missing; some mysterious dead guy appears = must be the same guy + ignoring all evidence to the contrary

ad 1) it's not Bran who says that, it's CH, so the logical thing would be to assume it means "long" in his own estimation, not in Bran's; Benjen is by all estimation at the time of ADWD 32 years old (give or take a year); for a 32 year old man, 2 years is in no way "long ago". Still, it's not evidence to the contrary.

2) whatever happened to his companions is in no way suggestive to whatever happened to Benjen; it's entirely possible that he survived while his companions died

3) the cache of Dragonglass could be left by an alive Benjen just as fine

4-6 conjecture

ad 7) I don't have ADWD with me, but: why would the children need a Stark if he can't use his Starkness to make Bran and company trust him? What would be his motive to not reveal himself to Bran?

Storyline: What would Benjen = Coldhands achieve? Coldhands obviously had the task to bring Bran to BR. Besides that we know nothing of him, it's possible that his function in the story is already served. What do we need Benjen for otoh? Imho, he has some story to reveal regarding his and his family's past. ("We'll speak when I return." Benjen to Jon in AGOT) He's the only (probably) still living member of the older generation of Starks. Imho, the CH= Benjen theory does nothing to bring these stories into play.

I believe he is a far more likely candidate for the Last Hero

Evidence:

Bran chapter in AGOT: "as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—”

combined with

All Bran could think of was Old Nan’s story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. “The children will help him,” he blurted, “the children of the forest!”

Similarities:

- set out into a "dead land" with a few companions on the mission to find out what happened to Waymar Royce (who was killed by the Others)

- companions die; it's very likely that Benjen learns that something's amiss and that he takes the initiative to find out more

- mission seems hopeless, everybody thinks he's dead

- there still are cotf, so Bran's outcry might foreshadow the real turn of events

[God_made_me_do_it]

The reason he'd be a Stark isn't because Bran would trust him, you've got my point backwards there I'm afraid - it's because from his 'employer's point of view he would be the absolute most reliable choice of character to get Bran through the wilds - First ranger, and a Stark. No character in the wilds would have more motivation to keep Bran safe or the skill to get him there than Benjen. He's also the only character who would have a motive to hide his identity from Bran - any other theory wouldn't matter but Benjen would undoubtedly not wish his own kin to recognise him in his current state. It also keeps Bran safer because knowing his uncle was defending him, corpse or no, may cause him to act differently when they were in danger.

As for "long ago".. well to be honest I'd imagine being DEAD and all 2 years felt like a sod of a long time - seriously though it could merely be conjecture to stop Bran figuring it out on the spot. It would possibly bring some shame on Benjen to be discovered in his current state so if Leaf said "He's been dead almost exactly the same amount of time your uncle's been missing HINT HINT" it not only spells it out way too obviously for Bran, but also to the reader. Either way 'long ago' is entirely subjective and far too ambiguous to make any assumptions based upon. How would you define the expression "he's been long dead?" - long enough to rot? Long enough to freeze? Long enough for your hands to turn cold and black? 2000yrs in a peat bog? What I'll be when the next bloody book comes out? It means nothing, simply that someone has been gone a while.

I don't mean to be rude but "all evidence to the contrary" is based entirely on these 2 words - so currently the best argument against it is entirely based on semantics.

Now, admittedly, the other compelling evidence I've mentioned isn't conclusive either (otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation), but it's not a great stretch of the imagination to combine those points into a good dramatic plotline - in which Benjen discovers/is contacted by the children of the forest, is given a cache of dragonglass, dies along with his companions at the fist of the first men where it is left, then is resurrected as Coldhands in order to help fulful Bran's destiny. Jon mentions the cache of dragonglass was not long in the ground so whatever rangers left it there can't have been gone for ages. There's also the possibility that coldhands left it there while they were already at the fist, and ghost sniffed him out, leading Jon to the cache.

I'm not sure how he's a candidate for "The Last Hero".. there doesn't seem to be anything really implying that it's anything other than an old legend and it doesn't really get any mentions in the plot so I doubt the story is of any real importance other than to give a few obfuscated details of the COTF's existence and something about the Others. Even then if Benjen's story was a loose allegory for the previous one of the last hero there's no reason he couldn't fulfil it as Coldhands. Last we saw him he was still fighting the bastards. There's been no prophecies of that specific character coming again, unless you combine it with the concept of R'Hllor's champion Azor Ahai in which case Jon Snow would be a far more compelling character for the role.

[TalkingToast]

I know that Coldhands saved Sam and Gilly, so that I should trust him as a more noble or good character - but the obvious Other connection or heritage if you will leads me otherwise.

Racist !

It was said in Dance that Coldhands died a looooooong time ago, to long ago to be Benjen.

[Ghost Rider]

The reason he'd be a Stark isn't because Bran would trust him, you've got my point backwards there I'm afraid - it's because from his 'employer's point of view he would be the absolute most reliable choice of character to get Bran through the wilds - First ranger, and a Stark.

That's entirely possible, if CH really preserved his old personality which I am not entirely convinced of.

He's also the only character who would have a motive to hide his identity from Bran - any other theory wouldn't matter but Benjen would undoubtedly not wish his own kin to recognise him in his current state.

That's where I can't follow you. Dead or no, if CH were Benjen, Bran would have more reason to trust him. Bran already noticed something supernatural about CH either way, so I doubt he would be less likely to follow him, if he knew it was Benjen. As it is, he didn't know what to make of him and might even have thought he's in league with the (other) Wights. He only followed him because of necessity.

As for "long ago".. well to be honest I'd imagine being DEAD and all 2 years felt like a sod of a long time

That's only an assumption. If CH really is resurrected and not the worse for it, there is no reason to assume that time has a different meaning for him.

- seriously though it could merely be conjecture to stop Bran figuring it out on the spot.

see above. I see absolutely no harm in Bran figuring it out.

It would possibly bring some shame on Benjen to be discovered in his current state so if Leaf said "He's been dead almost exactly the same amount of time your uncle's been missing HINT HINT" it not only spells it out way too obviously for Bran, but also to the reader. Either way 'long ago' is entirely subjective and far too ambiguous to make any assumptions based upon. How would you define the expression "he's been long dead?" - long enough to rot? Long enough to freeze? Long enough for your hands to turn cold and black? 2000yrs in a peat bog? What I'll be when the next bloody book comes out? It means nothing, simply that someone has been gone a while.

Why not say that then? You could use another qualifier, like e.g. a little while which would clearly point to a short period. You don't necessarily have to say, a year or something like that. I certainly wouldn't say "he died long ago" when I speak of someone who died at the most 3 years ago. Plus: the time Benjen is missing does not necessarily equal the time he is dead (in case he is, which I doubt)

I don't mean to be rude but "all evidence to the contrary" is based entirely on these 2 words - so currently the best argument against it is entirely based on semantics.

You are not rude, we just interprete the facts quite differently. You think it would be logical that CH wouldn't reveal his (supposed) true identity to Bran, while I think he has every reason. You think, "long ago" is only a weak quantifier which I agree with btw, but I tend to think that it's much more likely to be more then 3 years, while you are perfectly content with 3 years.

Now, admittedly, the other compelling evidence I've mentioned isn't conclusive either, but it's not a great stretch of the imagination to combine those points into a good dramatic plotline.

You see, that's the point I disagree the most with, because I don't think of it as a compelling storyline at all, quite the opposite actually. I don't see why we would need a (dead) Benjen for it, when every other dead character could serve the function as well. The possible motivation of the CotF is of minor importance to me, because they are at best supporting characters. A much more compelling theory is the NK = CH theory because the NK really brings a compelling story to the table which "Benjen is suited because he would be best motivated to help Bran" simply doesn't imho.

I'm not sure how he's a candidate for "The Last Hero".. there doesn't seem to be anything really implying that it's anything other than an old legend and it doesn't really get any mentions in the plot so I doubt the story is of any real importance other than to give a few obfuscated details of the COTF's existence and something about the Others.

Old legends tend to get alive in asoiaf. Of course not necessarily in the exact same way. There could be key differences.

Besides: why draw an unnecessary parallel? Old Nan could have told the story, without Bran later connecting this very story to Benjen.

There's been no prophecies of that specific character coming again, unless you combine it with the concept of R'Hllor's champion Azor Ahai in which case Jon Snow would be a far more compelling character for the role.

I agree that Jon is another candidate and Benjen's function could very well be to help Jon with something. Especially since he is also the link to Lyanna and thus to Jon, not to Bran. Lyanna was his favourite sibling, I admit, I want him to tell about her, not anybody else and surely not a dead guy. I don't see any reason why he has to be dead for that. In my opinion he is better able to do all that alive.

[aedalia]

I think Benjen is alive and off putting some plan in motion beyond the wall. I do not believe he is Coldhands. I think he left the Watch to accomplish his goals since they serve the greater good of protecting everyone south of the Wall.

[Melifeather]

I think he's Coldhands too, even though the Children of the Forest say Coldhands died a long time ago. I think they just don't want Bran to know who he is.

[God_made_me_do_it]

Well, the answer to most of the questions above was answered but conveniently missed out - The main reason I doubt he'd want his real identity revealed was because he wouldn't want his kin to know he'd become a monster ("YOUR monster", in his own words). But also had Bran known Benjen was Coldhands he may act rashly - for example he might have reservations about Coldhands laying down his li.. well, undeath for him, so it's also safer for Bran not to know this.

In response to the fact that it would be a good thing practically - I don't think it would do anything but get in the way. In the books when they question Coldhands' motives, they clearly state they have little choice but to follow him anyway. Coldhands undoubtedly knows this and besides they've already trusted Jojen Reed to take them well past the threshold of danger here.

Also we're forgetting the other reason why he'd keep his identity a secret - because this is a fantasy novel and it makes for good drama to reveal an ironic twist later on. Think - is it gonna be "OMG he was really my uncle all along!" or "OMG he's.. who? oh, some dude I've never met anyway. Seriously CH you built that up way too much." Martin has obviously kept his identity secret from Bran for a reason.

It was said in Dance that Coldhands died a looooooong time ago, to long ago to be Benjen.

I don't recall anyone emphasising it in the book with 7 o's haha! If they did I'd be a little concerned for the quality of writing in the upcoming novels! As I said though I think people are really reading too much into a tiny line. If he did have any purpose writing that line (which somehow I doubt) knowing Martin it was probably to throw people off the scent a bit anyway - "long" is a subjective measurement of time, why not "centuries" or "decades" or "books" ago?

[Naathi Prince]

1. 2 years IS 'long ago' to an 11yr old Boy. "long ago" is far too subjective a term to make any assumption on.

2. I thought wights were the same thing, I meant wights anyway.

3-7 ARE all compelling evidence, for either character motivation or storytelling, because together they add up. They're a combination of facts that suggest the possibility of Coldhands being Benjen Stark. I mean really how close to spelling it out can the author get?

except the boy didn't say that, did he? The Child of the Forest said it.

[Booknerd2]

What is the likelihood of Benjen warging an animal and being in front of us the whole time?

[BlueEyedCrow]

I think Benjen will be the prologue of one of the next books. We will see the Lands of Always Winter through his eyes and possibly the Others' "civilization." Then he will be click-clacked...

[God_made_me_do_it]

I was wondering the other idea actually - I'll state in advance this theory is nuts, but - what if Benjen warged himself and that's how he became Coldhands? Or what if the warging ability had something to do with being able to take control of your own body when a wight? We don't get to see that with Varamyr because he conveniently leaves his human body upon death to become a wolf, but what happens if someone with a warg ability remains in their body? It's reanimated and presumably controlled by some form of external consciousness - so I could see it possible that if Starks have an innate warging ability then they may have the power to retain their old body. Afterall, the ability seems very much dependent on familiarity with the body in question and the level of consciousness the creature has.. so surely your own body as a zombie would be possible?

[rmholt]

I absolutely believe he is Coldhands. I won't subscribe to the whole "GRR MARTIN IS TOO CLEVER FOR US!!1" because he's also a writer, and a good one. It's enough of a mystery currently to be interesting but it absolutely makes sense in terms of a good story. Furthermore it makes logical sense - look at the facts;

1. He's "missing" and we have no idea where.

2. His companions were found dead and became white walkers.

3. The cache of dragonglass on the hill of the first men was left by a ranger.

4. The children of the forest traditionally gave a gift of dragonglass to the rangers, this was clearly that gift and proves that at some point in recent history rangers found the greenseers.

5. Coldhands is in the employ of the children of the forest/greenseers. Very likely given the above that they saved him and he became coldhands.

6. Benjen Stark would have the motivation to save any other Stark. This makes him a perfect candidate for 'converting' a white walker to their cause, when that cause is clearly to save an important Stark.

7. Bran never sees Coldhands' face. Furthermore if his hands have gone black it was probably too decayed or changed to be recognisable anyway.

1. 2 years IS 'long ago' to an 11yr old Boy. "long ago" is far too subjective a term to make any assumption on.

2. I thought wights were the same thing, I meant wights anyway.

3-7 ARE all compelling evidence, for either character motivation or storytelling, because together they add up. They're a combination of facts that suggest the possibility of Coldhands being Benjen Stark. I mean really how close to spelling it out can the author get?

I confess to being dense but for me, a LOT closer.

1. A lot of people are missing including some of Benjen's traveling companions. Many other rangers. Many wildlings. All of Craster's sonsSouth of the Wall: Tyrek. Rugen. Weasel. Blackfish.

2. Not ALL of his companions. To go with my theory that he went to Winterfell perhaps he has companions there. The ones they found were wights. White Walkers are Others. Coldhands is a dead guy but neither an Other nor a wight. Others arent human but there is no evidence that they once were dead humans. The Other Sam killed was nothing like Coldhands. Its hands were mentioned a couple times - not described but no blackness mentioned.

3. I think the cache of dragon glass was left by Benjen or by some ancient ranger with the help of a spell to keep it from rotting. The dragonglass would be needed but todays Watch forgot. Either Benjen found out somehow or it was left as a cache by a ranger who was old enough to remember.

4. Reasonable. By no means does that connect the cache to Coldhands.

5. Coldhands was sent by Brynden. Brynden had been trying to reach Bran.

6. Coldhands is a dead person. Not an Other. Not a wight - too much personality.

7.WE dont see Coldhands face either. We dont know why.

[Naathi Prince]

I was wondering the other idea actually - I'll state in advance this theory is nuts, but - what if Benjen warged himself and that's how he became Coldhands? Or what if the warging ability had something to do with being able to take control of your own body when a wight? We don't get to see that with Varamyr because he conveniently leaves his human body upon death to become a wolf, but what happens if someone with a warg ability remains in their body? It's reanimated and presumably controlled by some form of external consciousness - so I could see it possible that if Starks have an innate warging ability then they may have the power to retain their old body. Afterall, the ability seems very much dependent on familiarity with the body in question and the level of consciousness the creature has.. so surely your own body as a zombie would be possible?

You are working with a false premise, that Benjen is Coldhands. You've provided no evidence on that account. Also, why on earth would you Warg your own dead body?

[God_made_me_do_it]

I confess to being dense but for me, a LOT closer.

1. A lot of people are missing including some of Benjen's traveling companions. Many other rangers. Many wildlings. All of Craster's sonsSouth of the Wall: Tyrek. Rugen. Weasel. Blackfish.

2. Not ALL of his companions. To go with my theory that he went to Winterfell perhaps he has companions there. The ones they found were wights. White Walkers are Others. Coldhands is a dead guy but neither an Other nor a wight. Others arent human but there is no evidence that they once were dead humans. The Other Sam killed was nothing like Coldhands. Its hands were mentioned a couple times - not described but no blackness mentioned.

3. I think the cache of dragon glass was left by Benjen or by some ancient ranger with the help of a spell to keep it from rotting. The dragonglass would be needed but todays Watch forgot. Either Benjen found out somehow or it was left as a cache by a ranger who was old enough to remember.

4. Reasonable. By no means does that connect the cache to Coldhands.

5. Coldhands was sent by Brynden. Brynden had been trying to reach Bran.

6. Coldhands is a dead person. Not an Other. Not a wight - too much personality.

7.WE dont see Coldhands face either. We dont know why.

I'd retort to that with -

1. Both of Benjen's travelling companions are accounted for and were found undead. Rangers typically go out in 3s. None of the other characters make as much sense from a story point of view, certainly none would have a compelling reason to go out of their way to obscure their identity from Bran.

2. Coldhands has pretty much every aspect of a wight, well, being obviously dead and animate.. yet doesn't have the blue eyes, which could quite clearly be a signifier of being controlled by a magical force, which would explain Coldhands not having them. I'm not sure how many other types of frozen undead hang about north of the wall but I'm saying it's a safe bet Coldhands is being kept animate by the same force that they are.. I did mention in that second post I meand wight, not white walker btw. I think coldhands is a sentient WIGHT.

3. I think the idea of chucking random spells in there to keep wool from going off is more than a bit far fetched.

4. Yep, doesn't necessarily rule it out either.

5. Brynden, CotF, they're working together, you know what I mean.

6. see 2 above. physically a wight, mentally in control. The children of the forest have some magic, it's not too out of the question they could 'convert' a single wight for their purposes.

7. The book is in POV format anyway. We don't see anything the character doesn't see directly. If we see it, Bran sees it. Although I maintain the secrecy is for the reader's benefit as much as Bran's so he can squeeze out a nice dramatic reveal.

You are working with a false premise, that Benjen is Coldhands. You've provided no evidence on that account. Also, why on earth would you Warg your own dead body?

I've provided evidence, you just haven't accepted any of it.

[Naathi Prince]

I'd retort to that with -

1. Both of Benjen's travelling companions are accounted for and were found undead. Rangers typically go out in 3s. None of the other characters make as much sense from a story point of view, certainly none would have a compelling reason to go out of their way to obscure their identity from Bran.

2. Coldhands has pretty much every aspect of a wight, well, being obviously dead and animate.. yet doesn't have the blue eyes, which could quite clearly be a signifier of being controlled by a magical force, which would explain Coldhands not having them. I'm not sure how many other types of frozen undead hang about north of the wall but I'm saying it's a safe bet Coldhands is being kept animate by the same force that they are.. I did mention in that second post I meand wight, not white walker btw. I think coldhands is a sentient WIGHT.

3. I think the idea of chucking random spells in there to keep wool from going off is more than a bit far fetched.

4. Yep, doesn't necessarily rule it out either.

5. Brynden, CotF, they're working together, you know what I mean.

6. see 2 above. physically a wight, mentally in control. The children of the forest have some magic, it's not too out of the question they could 'convert' a single wight for their purposes.

7. The book is in POV format anyway. We don't see anything the character doesn't see directly. If we see it, Bran sees it. Although I maintain the secrecy is for the reader's benefit as much as Bran's so he can squeeze out a nice dramatic reveal.

I've provided evidence, you just haven't accepted any of it.

because none of it is evidence! Conjecture isn't evidence.