The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)

[sailor]

Automne, once Aegon and Rhaenys were killed during the Sack of Kings Landing, if Lyanna's child was legitimate and survived it was Rhaegar's heir. Rhaegar, as Aerys' oldest son, was his father's heir. Since Rhaegar died, his oldest son, Aegon, would have inherited the throne. Since he and Rhaenys were dead, Rhaegar's oldest living legitimate male heir became the Targaryen heir. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, their child should have inherited the Iron Throne.

Wrong.

This would have only been true had Rhaegar outlived Aerys II. However since Rhaegar had only ever been a prince and never a king the rightful and the immediate heir is Viserys, the second son of the king.

At the moment of Rhaegar`s death Viserys became the heir apparent.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Wrong.

This would have only been true had Rhaegar outlived Aerys II. However since Rhaegar had only ever been a prince and never a king the rightful and the immediate heir is Viserys, the second son of the king.

At the moment of Rhaegar`s death Viserys became the heir apparent.

Nope. That's really just not true at all, and I have no idea where you got that from. After the death of Prince Baelor Breakspear the heir to the Iron Throne was his son Prince Valarr, not his next brother Prince Aerys (who actually did become the next King, since Valarr and Matarys died in the Spring along with their grandfather Daeron II).

There's no requirement for one's father to be king in order to be the next in line.

[sailor]

Maybe I am wrong.

It`s been a while since we ditched the monarchy in these places.

[Black Wizard]

What's the difference between heir apparent and heir presumptive?

[A wilding]

A heir presumptive is next in line for the throne but can be displaced from this position by someone with a better claim being born. A heir apparent cannot be so displaced.

For example, a younger brother of a king will be heir presumptive while the king has no children. If the king then has a son, this son becomes heir apparent.

[Shewoman]

When Dead King dies, his oldest legitimate son (Son 1) inherits the throne. If this son is dead, that doesn't obviate his claim; it goes to his oldest legitimate son (and his sons). After all of Son 1's sons have died, ruled, or for some reason been barred from inheritance, his daughters inherit the claim except in systems that prohibit this. Once the daughters' claims have been disposed of, the claim goes to Dead King's Son 2 and his sons, followed by his daughters. When all of Dead King's descendants have been used up, the children of Dead King's brothers inherit the claim--oldest legitimate son to youngest, followed by daughters if that's done in this particular kingdom. When they are used up, the children of Dead King's sisters inherit the claim. After that we go to Dead king's more distant relatives, if any.

[Black Wizard]

Could Eddard have told Benjen about Jon's parentage? We know for certain that Howland Reed was in the room with Eddard when he made a promise to Lyanna, but there's no reason why he wouldn't have told Benjen.

[Shewoman]

Howland wasn't there; Ned remembers "them" finding him holding dead Lyanna's hand. Howland isn't mentioned as being in the room.

If Ned promised Lyanna not to tell anyone who Jon's parents were, I don't think he'd tell Benjen. He won't tell JON; why should he tell Jon's uncle?

[Black Wizard]

I'm sure Howland is mentioned during one of Ned's flashback's in Thrones. And who knows what Ned promised Lyanna?

[Shewoman]

Howland is mentioned as having gone with Ned to the ToJ and saved his life. I'm pretty sure he's not mentioned as having been in the room when Lyanna died

No one knows what Ned's promises to Lyanna were. There has to be a reason why he refuses to tell even Jon who Jon's mother is and shuts Catelyn down so completely when she asks about Ashara that she never raises the issue again. If that was one of the promises, that would explain Ned's behavior--and I think it's reasonable that Lyanna would ask it, since Rhaegar has already been killed in a battle for the throne and it's hard to imagine a mother wanting that fate for her child.

[Shewoman]

In my American paperback of Game of Thrones, pp. 43-44, Ned reminds Robert that he, Ned, was with Lyanna when she died. When he gave her his word (about what we do not know), "the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes . . . Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They (unidentified) had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it."

Since Howland isn't mentioned until after "they" found Ned with Lyanna's corpse, I think he's probably one of the "they."

[Black Wizard]

I just read the same passage and came to the same conclusion.

[nateman29]

Ned's reaction and subsequent arguments with Robert about the plans to assassinate Dany have always struck me. Does anyone else think that not only does Ned find the notion of murdering a child to be morally reprehenisible, but maybe that he is using the situation with Dany to gauge Robert's possible reaction if he were learn of Jon's Targaryen heritage?

I've always felt that Ned never revealed Jon's parentage because he felt that Robert's hatred of the Targaryens would make him order Jon to be put to death.

Maybe Ned thought that if he could use the situation with Dany to help Robert get over his hatred of Targaryens that it might someday be safe for Ned to reveal Jon's true parentage? Robert even relents on his deathbed and tells Ned he was right about Dany and that ordering her assassination was wrong. Was Ned's attempt to gentle Robert's anger too little and too late?

[Black Wizard]

I've always felt that Ned never revealed Jon's parentage because he felt that Robert's hatred of the Targaryens would make him order Jon to be put to death.

I thought the same thing myself quite recently, assuming that Jon is Rhaegar's son. Rober trusted Ned, Jon Arryn and probably his brothers above everyone else, but Eddard didn't appear to have the same trust in Robert about Jon's parentage. We're all quite sure that Ned trusted Howland Reed with such information, and I think possibly Benjen as well.

Anyone else think that Robert should have just married Joffrey to Daenerys instead of trying to kill her?

[Shewoman]

A Dany-Joffrey wedding might have worked until partway into the second day, when Dany would surely have her dragons kill Joff. I don't see it happening, though; Robert would never trust the Targaryen Dany--and having a Targaryen WITH DRAGONS as Queen would probably give those who still support the Targaryens (some of whom we see in AFFC) hope and possibly lead to a rebellion on her behalf. I think Dany and Robert have the same idea about each other: kill!

I don't think, however, that Dany would have married into the Baratheon line in any case. She considers Robert an Usurper and any children she and Joffrey had would rule as Baratheons (assuming the incest story isn't widely accepted).

I do think that fear of Robert is why Ned keeps Jon's mother's identity secret--but actually I think the secrecy comes originally from Lyanna rather than from Ned. I don't think Ned or anyone else would ever think that Robert would be fine with learning that his old friend and Hand had secretly been raising the Targaryen heir.

[Black Wizard]

Ahem, I was thinking about early/pre-AGOT for such a marriage, not when her bloody dragons had hatched.

[Shewoman]

Ah. I still don't think Robert would have wanted to bring a Targaryen into his royal family, and I don't think Dany would have seen any advantage to her in it.

[Black Wizard]

She wouldn't have Robert's hired knives chasing her.

[Jonathan]

Could Eddard have told Benjen about Jon's parentage? We know for certain that Howland Reed was in the room with Eddard when he made a promise to Lyanna, but there's no reason why he wouldn't have told Benjen.

Yeah.. i think if there is one person that Ned would have told its Benjen. He probably meant to tell Jon later too.

Ben was his last brother left, and seeing how he joined the Night's Watch he seems like a man of trust..

'' Dad and Brandon are dead and Lyanna's dead too, and this is definently not her child, not the last memory of her...hes my bastard, that i kidnapped''

Plus Ben has the possibility to come back from the haunted forest and tell Jon, since he's 16 Ned surely meant to tell him at 16( if e ever meant to) This is assuming he really isnt a bastard of some random wench.

[Shewoman]

I think Dany would prefer Robert's hired assassins to sleeping with the enemy.

We don't know that Howland Reed was in the room when Ned made promises to Lyanna. He isn't mentioned until "they" find Ned holding his dead sister's hand.

Ned has good reason for keeping Jon's parentage secret: If Robert knew that a Targaryen heir was still alive (and even if R+ L doesn't equal marriage, bastards can always be legitimized and usurp the legitimate line), he would have that person killed--and probably the people who had raised him. The only way for Ned to make sure that secret is kept is to tell no one. I think it's likely that that's one of the promises Lyanna asked of him--she had fewer illusions about Robert than her brother did.