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Randyll Tarly


Anatole Kuragin

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We all know Randyll Tarly as either the evil father type or the very competent military leader. As I read through these books, I can't help but thinking that maybe there's something more for him in the grand song. No other character has been revered as much as Rhaegar without us having any real insight on him, and since Rhaegar is a dead prince and hero/villian, one may wonder if the lovable Randyll Tarly may be destined to be more than an abusive father and Tyrell lapdog.

The general consensus is that the Tyrells are the only house unaffected thus far by tragedy (aside from Loras, if that's believed) and The Crown's recent actions have prompted Mace Tyrell to take notice and get uppity. If there is a falling out between the Lannisters and the Tyrells, Randyll Tarly is in the convenient position of being stationed near the crownlands (particularly Duskendale and further south King's Landing itself). Tarly seems to be a very interesting possibility for a POV or even as an evolving major character as a whole. With Tywin dead, there's a bit of a void left for tough military men related to POV characters.

If not a schism of the Tyrell-Lannister alliance, he could possibly be summoned to King's Landing as the Hand, be sent west to fight vikings, north to fight Stannis, or any other of a myriad of possibilities.

What do you think will happen with this engrossing enigma we know as Randyll Tarly?
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[quote name='Nathan of the North' post='1281100' date='Mar 20 2008, 00.30']We all know Randyll Tarly as either the evil father type or the very competent military leader. As I read through these books, I can't help but thinking that maybe there's something more for him in the grand song. No other character has been revered as much as Rhaegar without us having any real insight on him, and since Rhaegar is a dead prince and hero/villian, one may wonder if the lovable Randyll Tarly may be destined to be more than an abusive father and Tyrell lapdog.

The general consensus is that the Tyrells are the only house unaffected thus far by tragedy (aside from Loras, if that's believed) and The Crown's recent actions have prompted Mace Tyrell to take notice and get uppity. If there is a falling out between the Lannisters and the Tyrells, Randyll Tarly is in the convenient position of being stationed near the crownlands (particularly Duskendale and further south King's Landing itself). Tarly seems to be a very interesting possibility for a POV or even as an evolving major character as a whole. With Tywin dead, there's a bit of a void left for tough military men related to POV characters.

If not a schism of the Tyrell-Lannister alliance, he could possibly be summoned to King's Landing as the Hand, be sent west to fight vikings, north to fight Stannis, or any other of a myriad of possibilities.

What do you think will happen with this engrossing enigma we know as Randyll Tarly?[/quote]

First of all, sorry, Sam lovers. But I have to take issue with the perception of Randyll as an evil father. Is he dad of the year? God no, but I think he was doing what he thought was right for his lands. Short-sighted, perhaps, but if you were a lord and your heir presumptive was a fat little nancy boy who preferred playing with kittens and whatnot to learning what he needed to learn in order to be an effective ruler, you'd probably want to pass him over. The position Sam would have inherited would have required a certain amount of military know-how and if not enthusiasm for, then acceptance of his role as a warrior and battle commander. I think Randyll's biggest mistake in regards to Sam was not realizing his son's potential as a leader in non-martial areas. Given his situation, I think sending Sam to the Wall was probably the best thing Randyll could have done, with the possible exception of sending him to the Citadel. Of course this way, any claim Sam could have made is rendered invalid.

I guess what I'm saying here is that Randyll, along with being an effective military mind and fighter is also quite shrewd politically and is invested in his role as feudal lord with the responsibilities arising therefrom. I'd be quite interested to see what happens to him and what he does.
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[quote name='FrankenGregor' post='1281110' date='Mar 20 2008, 06.58']First of all, sorry, Sam lovers. But I have to take issue with the perception of Randyll as an evil father. Is he dad of the year? God no, but I think he was doing what he thought was right for his lands.[/quote]
He chained Sam hand and foot to a wall in a dungeon for [i]three days[/i]. That's [i]awful[/i]. And there is a great difference between being a good martial leader and being a good lord IMO. Obviously Sam isn't the first, but with some [i]actual education[/i] he certainly could've been the latter.
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[quote name='SkyPirate' post='1281160' date='Mar 20 2008, 03.59']He chained Sam hand and foot to a wall in a dungeon for [i]three days[/i]. That's [i]awful[/i]. And there is a great difference between being a good martial leader and being a good lord IMO. Obviously Sam isn't the first, but with some [i]actual education[/i] he certainly could've been the latter.[/quote]


I'm not saying he's a nice guy, there's no place for nice guys in Westeros. What I see is Randyll at his wits end trying desperately to turn his son into some sort of man to ensure his family and lands remain strong. Randyll went to some length and expense and trouble to cure his son of weakness and cowardice. His methods are not the best, I'll grant you. I agree that his treatment of Sam is often cruel. However, I don't think he did those things because he's evil, but because he didn't know what else to do. He'd exhausted every other option, as he saw it. Sam wasn't going to learn warfare by Randyll asking politely if he would like to take training or if he would prefer to eat cakes instead. It just wasn't going to happen. Even at the Wall, away from his ogre of a father, Sam is only spared from a lifetime (however long it may be) of beatings by Jon's benevolence. Sam would have been a failure as a lord. He's very intelligent, and he's good-hearted but that's certainly not all it takes. You can't have a military commander pissing his pants and crying everytime there's blood spilled.

If Randyll was truly evil, he'd have not even given Sam the chance to get to the Wall. Sam would be dead, and really, who would think it amiss that some lord's spawn weakling would die in a hunt? And who would miss him? I think Randyll's own bannermen probably were relieved that Sam would not inherit.

Martial ability isn't the only requirement of a good lord. Far from it. But it's a damn important one. It's one of a lord's primary functions. This is why I say Randyll is short-sighted. Sam could have been an asset to his father, to be sure. He has many valuable qualities. But not necessary qualities valuable for a lord. A lord who is weak in the field isn't going to be able to rein in his more unruly banners. He is not going to be able to deal with outside threats. He will be perceived as weak by all and continually taken advantage of. The primary responsiblity of a lord is for the safety of his subjects and for the military aid of his own lord. I just don't see Sam being able to fill these obligations.

Is he an asshole? Sure. But there's more to it than that.
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A good lord doesn't have to be a great general on the battlefield. Willas Tyrell is a cripple but he's considered pretty competent to rule Highgarden.

Randyll Tarly has a very narrow vision of what a Tarly lord should be. Sam remembers his father's scornful attitude towards maesters (the infamous case where Sam was chained) and yet plenty of noble-born boys trained as such. Lazy Leo Tyrell, for one. I guess Randyll's rage mostly stemmed from Sam being his only son at the time, but it shows his preference for a more martial lord Tarly.

And yes, he's an asshole. Evil? No.

[quote]he could possibly be summoned to King's Landing as the Hand[/quote]
I agree with Kevan's opinion of the man: he's an appalling Hand for peacetime. During war, esp against the Ironborn (who must be crushed!!!), he'd be excellent. He's considered the finest soldier in the realm.

I'm still confused how such a man could have had a son like Sam, to be honest.
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[quote name='FrankenGregor' post='1281194' date='Mar 20 2008, 04.57']You can't have a military commander pissing his pants and crying everytime there's blood spilled.[/quote]

But the funny thing is that when things became really dangerous, Sam held up better than those blustery, cruel men whom Randyll Tarly would have respected more. It was they who were pissing their pants then. IMHO, Sam's development shows that yes, he was capable of attaining the necessary degree of martial competence, if he was properly appreciated for his strengths and allowed to gain some self-esteem. But Randyll didn't want just competence - he wanted a consummate warrior and couldn't give a spit for Sam's very real and partly even stellar areas of strength. Randyll just mismanaged his heir very badly IMHO.

[quote]He has many valuable qualities. But not necessary qualities valuable for a lord.[/quote]

I disagree. Sam has qualities valuable to a lord - qualities that Randyll lacks. That's why Randyll was never able to capitalize on his military achievements - he is not a politician. He was unable to increase family's fortunes and made enemies of all their neighbors because of it. Randyll is an excellent warrior and a good general and that is all he is. And yes, he is evil, IMHO.
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While I am no Randyll lover I don't think it is fair for us to judge him using today's moralities for what he did to Sam. Even today what man would not be a little disappointed to see his son get grossly overweight, delight in girl things and not want anything to do with sports, games or anything really that was "boyish"? As the father of 4 boys I can tell you that I did not mind my boys liking dolls and things when they were young, but if it persisted into the teen years I would be a little alarmed. And that is in a more enlightened time.

Now imagine with all the harshness that is Martin's world and you are the lord of lands and castle and your son is fat, fopish and a (self-named) coward? Even Jon, Sam's best friend, gets sick and tired of Sam calling himself a craven and coward. As Randyll you would be mad, confused, angered and scared for the future of you holdings and people...not to mention your line. I think extreme measures where justified in his mind. I agree that he is not the best father in the world but I think calling him evil is wrong.

Even the things he said to Brienne were in his mind for her own good....tactful? no. He has lived his life by his own code and he expects everyone else to adhere to it.
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Although it's slightly off topic, I can't resist to ask the question in this thread:

As Lord Randyll's wife is Lady Melessa of House Florent (first daughter of the late Lord Alester Florent) do you think it possible that Samwell, Dickon and their sisters has the incredible Florent ears? But if that's so, why did GRRM never describe Sam's ears?
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[quote name='Anthem' post='1281205' date='Mar 20 2008, 06.19']A good lord doesn't have to be a great general on the battlefield. Willas Tyrell is a cripple but he's considered pretty competent to rule Highgarden.[/quote]

Just to comment on this: actually, a good lord should be a competent military leader. This is a feudal society. Lords were charged with upholding and dispersing the law, as well as protecting their smallfolk. The case of Willas Tyrell is rare, as he is well loved by the people because he carries the familiar lordly name, (presumably) upholds the law, but is not required to defend them on the field because he has other family members to do it. Garlan and Loras are celebrated warriors. If Willas was the heir and only son, his position would be more tenuous.
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I also don't think we should Willas out as a military mind just because he has a bad leg. Nothing says he could not be a military mind..a good commander should not be in the middle of a battle in my opinion anyways..that is why you have men fight for you and a bodyguard. Just because he can't joust anymore does not mean he is not a good military leader.
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Samwell is not Randyll's only son, and if I'm correct Dickon is only four years younger than Samwell. Randyll could've trained Samwell in all the other things a lord has to do (taxes, managment etc.) and saved the more martial tasks for Dickon (sort of un-official General of Horn Hill). This is probably the way it is with the Tyrell brothers. But [i]no[/i], the shame of Samwell wearing Heartsbane would be too much to bear for poor Randyll. :rolleyes:
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[quote name='SkyPirate' post='1281776' date='Mar 20 2008, 11.13']Samwell is not Randyll's only son, and if I'm correct Dickon is only four years younger than Samwell. Randyll could've trained Samwell in all the other things a lord has to do (taxes, managment etc.) and saved the more martial tasks for Dickon (sort of un-official General of Horn Hill). This is probably the way it is with the Tyrell brothers. But [i]no[/i], the shame of Samwell wearing Heartsbane would be too much to bear for poor Randyll. :rolleyes:[/quote]

But think of what the other lords would say if Randyll let his fat, craven, whining son be the "official" general even if Dickon were the "unofficial" general.

It's also a bit unfair to make the Tyrell connection considering Willas [i]did[/i] use to do cool manly things like joust before he was physically unable to do so. Sam would be perfectly capable if he weren't fat and craven.
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[quote name='Nathan of the North' post='1281789' date='Mar 20 2008, 18.20']But think of what the other lords would say if Randyll let his fat, craven, whining son be the "official" general even if Dickon were the "unofficial" general.
It's also a bit unfair to make the Tyrell connection considering Willas [i]did[/i] use to do cool manly things like joust before he was physically unable to do so. Sam would be perfectly capable if he weren't fat and craven.[/quote]
What I'm talking about is that Willas has Garlan and Loras to be all 'manly' and in the limelight when there's war. People hardly talk about Willas and very fond of the other two and their view of house Tyrell is very positive or should I say respectful. Samwell should stay in the shadows and let Dickon take all the credit, if you get what I mean. I think Samwell would've been more calm and less "I'm so craven!" if Randyll had acquitted him from martial studies.

[quote name='Or as Jon would have it:']"A chain needs all sorts of metals, and a land needs all sorts of people. (...) You can't hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn't mean tin is useless"[/quote]

But you're probably righ, no doubt many of the lords would sneer down on Samwell.

Also, methinks that there's a chance that Willas doesn't give a damn about 'cool manly things' as he's very fond of reading and looking at the stars. And I like him for that.
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Randyll's refusal to back his son only makes Sam more prone to ridicule. Sam is still a capable person in some arenas, just not all. His being fat ... small consolation perhaps but I do believe the Manderlys are fatter. And his being craven, that too Tarly could have actually had a positive influence on.
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[quote name='TheBigTEA' post='1281523' date='Mar 20 2008, 11.15']While I am no Randyll lover I don't think it is fair for us to judge him using today's moralities for what he did to Sam. Even today what man would not be a little disappointed to see his son get grossly overweight, delight in girl things and not want anything to do with sports, games or anything really that was "boyish"?[/quote]

Learning and music aren't exactly "girlish" things in that society. In fact the first is largely reserved for men and the second is just a sign of good breeding. IIRC young Lannisters are trained in music to some degree - Lancel was certainly able and willing to sing for Cersei, and they all are/were good dancers. Randyll is a boor, who doesn't appreciate such things, but that's his loss. And BTW, the Manderlies were grossly overweight, but still competent enough fighters, so...


[quote]Now imagine with all the harshness that is Martin's world and you are the lord of lands and castle and your son is fat, fopish and a (self-named) coward? Even Jon, Sam's best friend, gets sick and tired of Sam calling himself a craven and coward.[/quote]

And why is Sam, who is actually much braver than most in truly dangerous situations like the Fist of First Men and the desperate trek back to the Wall, a self-perceived coward? Because of Randyll's idiocy, that's why. Randyll never had a word of praise for Sam's talents, but was always full of scorn for his failings. And he was very cruel and unreasonable in his attempts to correct said failings and to beat Sam into the mold of a perfect warrior, for which he is plainly not suited. He demolished Sam's self-esteem and caused Sam to stubbornly resist any martial instruction. Yes, Sam seems like a craven and sees himself as a craven, but do you realise how much stubborness and subconscious strength was needed to oppose Randyll so completely? A coward and a weakling would have caved in and tried to do everything, anything to make Randyll lay off, ironically enough.

[quote]As Randyll you would be mad, confused, angered and scared for the future of you holdings and people...not to mention your line. I think extreme measures where justified in his mind. I agree that he is not the best father in the world but I think calling him evil is wrong.[/quote]

Even though the situation only arose because of his own foolishness, there were still much better, wholly socially accepted and profitable ways to resolve it. Making Sam a septon, for instance, could have payed off handsomely for Tarlys down the line, if he managed to make a career in the Faith - which seemed likely. Even sending him to the Citadel could have brought dividends, as it isn't as neutral as it pretends to be. But no! What is perfectly acceptable for the first families in the kingdom wasn't good enough for Randyll Tarly - _his_ son had to be a warrior or dead.

And sure, it was always an advantage for a ruler to have warlike image. However, in nearly every case in history, where a capable politician was pitted against a capable warrior/general, the former _won_. Even after Robert, Randyll is just too stupid to realise that war is just one aspect of politics and that a great fighter and a brute doesn't a great lord make, unless by chance he is also a gifted in that area.

Re: Willas, I have to wonder about him. Being lame shouldn't have prevented him from commanding troops, unless he is unable to ride. So, maybe he _chose_ not to do so and his disability provided a convenient excuse?
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That's a great post, Maia.
[quote name='Maia' post='1281907' date='Mar 20 2008, 19.32']Re: Willas, I have to wonder about him. Being lame shouldn't have prevented him from commanding troops, unless he is unable to ride. So, maybe he _chose_ not to do so and his disability provided a convenient excuse?[/quote]
IIRC, Willas can ride.

[quote name='ASoS']"Willas has the best birds in the Seven Kingdoms," Margaery said when the two of them were briefly alone. "He flies an eagle sometimes."[/quote]

I think that hawking is usually done when riding a horse. He also breeds the best horses in the Seven Kingdoms, apparently, which again indicated that he can ride a horse, IMO.

Perhaps Willas decided not to command troops but to keep business in order in Highgarden. After all, he has enough family members who'll happily command troops. I also got the impression that jousting was something he was forced into as opposed to his current hobbies (reading, breeding animals, the stars).
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Randyll Tarly moves his lips when he's reading. That man never read the Seven Pointed Star or any other book. So it's no surprise he can't see honour in sending his son to the Citadel or the Faith.

But we should judge Randyll too harshly. House Tarly seems to have become quite important as the Shield of Highgarden in the Reach because Mace Tyrell is pretty inefficient as battle commander. And Randyll is certainly inable to see other the qualities of his son, if all House Tyrell wants of Horn Hill is the finest soldier in the Realm. Maybe Samwell would have been able to become a Lord, but he would have never been able to do for House Tyrell what his father had done. And so the glory of House Tarly would have declined with Lord Samwell.
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[quote name='Maia' post='1281907' date='Mar 20 2008, 13.32']Learning and music aren't exactly "girlish" things in that society. In fact the first is largely reserved for men and the second is just a sign of good breeding. IIRC young Lannisters are trained in music to some degree - Lancel was certainly able and willing to sing for Cersei, and they all are/were good dancers. Randyll is a boor, who doesn't appreciate such things, but that's his loss. And BTW, the Manderlies were grossly overweight, but still competent enough fighters, so...




And why is Sam, who is actually much braver than most in truly dangerous situations like the Fist of First Men and the desperate trek back to the Wall, a self-perceived coward? Because of Randyll's idiocy, that's why. Randyll never had a word of praise for Sam's talents, but was always full of scorn for his failings. And he was very cruel and unreasonable in his attempts to correct said failings and to beat Sam into the mold of a perfect warrior, for which he is plainly not suited. He demolished Sam's self-esteem and caused Sam to stubbornly resist any martial instruction. Yes, Sam seems like a craven and sees himself as a craven, but do you realise how much stubborness and subconscious strength was needed to oppose Randyll so completely? A coward and a weakling would have caved in and tried to do everything, anything to make Randyll lay off, ironically enough.



Even though the situation only arose because of his own foolishness, there were still much better, wholly socially accepted and profitable ways to resolve it. Making Sam a septon, for instance, could have payed off handsomely for Tarlys down the line, if he managed to make a career in the Faith - which seemed likely. Even sending him to the Citadel could have brought dividends, as it isn't as neutral as it pretends to be. But no! What is perfectly acceptable for the first families in the kingdom wasn't good enough for Randyll Tarly - _his_ son had to be a warrior or dead.

And sure, it was always an advantage for a ruler to have warlike image. However, in nearly every case in history, where a capable politician was pitted against a capable warrior/general, the former _won_. Even after Robert, Randyll is just too stupid to realise that war is just one aspect of politics and that a great fighter and a brute doesn't a great lord make, unless by chance he is also a gifted in that area.

Re: Willas, I have to wonder about him. Being lame shouldn't have prevented him from commanding troops, unless he is unable to ride. So, maybe he _chose_ not to do so and his disability provided a convenient excuse?[/quote]


Again I am not a big fan of Randyll and I was basically saying that he is not an evil man. I did not mean to imply that he is a great dad or anything like that. I don't think he had time for music and singing and because he is not able to understand anything that is not something that he wants to do he thought poorly of Sam. He was and is a well thought leader of men...so why should he not want his son and heir to follow in his footsteps?

I don't know where in the books they show the Manderlys as competent fighters? The only things I remember is one being to fat to sit a horse and one getting a crossbow bolt through his open mouth. I think they are more out there for show than anything else. Also the one that was captured would weep...I cannot remember where that was. Harrenhal?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nothing Sam has done strikes me as brave at all....lucky is what it is. All he does is complain and moan about being fat and cowardly. He had to be carried by small Paul for a while after the Fist. Granted that was a horrible thing to witness, but other people carried on after.

I don't consider being attacked and defending yourself really brave...it is called self preservation. :leaving:

It seems that Sam hid behind his mother and Randyll seemed to really care about his wife. I think cart him off to the Watch was the best thing Randyll could do. Don't forget that his lands are close to Citadel and he is the consumate warrior...he would not want his son to be seen that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>

I think as far as Willas is concerned we may see him in battle before things are all said and done. Remember Beesbury in HK fought in the trial of 7 with a broken leg (it did not turn out all that well for him however, but he fought). I think to this point he has just been overshadowed by his very martial brothers.


In the end I think he thought his methods were justified. Again..he is an ass, but he is still doing what he thinks is best for his family (even Sam!) and for his people.
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The weeping one was being fed roasted human in captivity and taunted for his weight.

The Manderlys acquitted themselves well in battle. They're neither dead nor associated with cowardice. Means there's some considerable ability to haul that paunch around and still kick ass- although taking a lance from a Manderly would be a seriously intimidating proposition even for a Gregor, I think.

I posted about this some time ago, but I've long thought Sam has his father's strengths and is in fact more stubborn than his father. They had a battle of wills which [b]Sam won.[/b]

Sam accepts that he's a coward, because his father kept telling him he was. It's safe, and easy, and gets him out of things. Sam's also hardcore pragmatic. Sure, he pisses his pants when the blood starts to fly- he also sheds his share. Wait till Sam's in the Library and someone threatens the books, if you want to see an intimidating figure.

It's hard to express the concept, but if anything scared Randyll Tarly, that would be the end of him. Sam'd just piss his pants again and get on with it.

The scene with the Other- in my head, I see Sam going "Well, you're scary, I'd better stab you." Sam has a very, very strong will. He just doesn't think he's worth anything, and doesn't take care of himself as a result. Jon is correcting this.

After all, Sam's damn near the perfect soldier. Jon ordered him not to be afraid anymore, or act on it. Sam [i]has the willpower to actually pull that off[/i].

It occurs to me, and I'm rambly tonight, that that was Randyll's mistake. "Stop being a coward, I forbid it!" "I can't, I'm scared." "Well, I'll make you not-scared!" No, he should have said "Well, than I order you to never act on it!" "Sir, yes, sir!" "Now KILL!" "Sir, yes, sir- sir, may I go sing songs afterward, sir?"
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[quote name='BrainFireBob' post='1282893' date='Mar 21 2008, 02.01']The weeping one was being fed roasted human in captivity and taunted for his weight.

The Manderlys acquitted themselves well in battle. They're neither dead nor associated with cowardice. Means there's some considerable ability to haul that paunch around and still kick ass- although taking a lance from a Manderly would be a seriously intimidating proposition even for a Gregor, I think.

I posted about this some time ago, but I've long thought Sam has his father's strengths and is in fact more stubborn than his father. They had a battle of wills which [b]Sam won.[/b]

Sam accepts that he's a coward, because his father kept telling him he was. It's safe, and easy, and gets him out of things. Sam's also hardcore pragmatic. Sure, he pisses his pants when the blood starts to fly- he also sheds his share. Wait till Sam's in the Library and someone threatens the books, if you want to see an intimidating figure.

It's hard to express the concept, but if anything scared Randyll Tarly, that would be the end of him. Sam'd just piss his pants again and get on with it.

The scene with the Other- in my head, I see Sam going "Well, you're scary, I'd better stab you." Sam has a very, very strong will. He just doesn't think he's worth anything, and doesn't take care of himself as a result. Jon is correcting this.

After all, Sam's damn near the perfect soldier. Jon ordered him not to be afraid anymore, or act on it. Sam [i]has the willpower to actually pull that off[/i].

It occurs to me, and I'm rambly tonight, that that was Randyll's mistake. "Stop being a coward, I forbid it!" "I can't, I'm scared." "Well, I'll make you not-scared!" No, he should have said "Well, than I order you to never act on it!" "Sir, yes, sir!" "Now KILL!" "Sir, yes, sir- sir, may I go sing songs afterward, sir?"[/quote]

While I agree with most of your argument there are two things I have to question.

How can you say that Randyll would die if anything scared him? I'm sure in the thick of battle he has been scared plenty of times, its just human nature, but he's kept fighting through it like he was trained to do. Sam does do the same thing but he pisses his pants first and considers telling his oppenent that hes a craven first.

Also I can't see Sam thinking anything along the lines of "Well, you're scary, I'd better stab you." I've always seen it more as him looking desperately for anything to put between him and the Other and the only thing on hand was the dragonglass dagger. that it was the other's weakness is just dumbluck.

I'm not by any means a Randyll fan, althhough i can respect his martial prownessm, but considering the harsh society they live in, his actions are understandable if a bit extreme.
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