Randyll Tarly

[Starkaryan]

[quote name='Anthem' post='1281205' date='Mar 20 2008, 04.19']I'm still confused how such a man could have had a son like Sam, to be honest.[/quote]
It happens. Let me assure you.

[BrainFireBob]

Sam's very much Randyll's son, IMO- just as stubborn and hardheaded. He just doesn't suffer from Randyll's inadequacies. I put to you Randyll has small-man inferiority issues that makes him need to be the baddest and the meanest. Sam is a large, muscular man under his fat. No size inadequacy needing something to prove there.

My point was Sam acts when afraid, he doesn't just freeze and stay frozen. And Randyll doesn't seem terribly brave- bravery is facing fear. Randyll seems to not care- which means he's unaccustomed, as were many in the Watch, to being afraid and continuing anyway.

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='BrainFireBob' post='1283986' date='Mar 21 2008, 17.50']Sam's very much Randyll's son, IMO- just as stubborn and hardheaded. He just doesn't suffer from Randyll's inadequacies. I put to you Randyll has small-man inferiority issues that makes him need to be the baddest and the meanest. Sam is a large, muscular man under his fat. No size inadequacy needing something to prove there.

My point was Sam acts when afraid, he doesn't just freeze and stay frozen. And Randyll doesn't seem terribly brave- bravery is facing fear. Randyll seems to not care- which means he's unaccustomed, as were many in the Watch, to being afraid and continuing anyway.[/quote]

You are straying into the idealistic here. Everything that we have seen paints Randyll as a brave, active man. His actions as a commander, a tactician, or just a leader of men, paint him to be vigorous and impressive. He has (many, extreme) faults, but we can not question his bravery.

I realize that you are implying that true bravery would entail him giving in to introspection, and coming to terms with why he loathes his less violent, softer son - but that is simply not in his character. One can be brave, but flawed; loathesome, but effective.

[BrainFireBob]

Actually, I'm maintaining that being brave and not fearing something, trite as it sounds, are not the same thing.

Bravery is doing something terrifying, or facing your fear.

Simply not fearing something- I suppose you could label that courageous, but really, if it's not fearful or terrifying, it's just a thing you do.

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='BrainFireBob' post='1284011' date='Mar 21 2008, 17.10']Actually, I'm maintaining that being brave and not fearing something, trite as it sounds, are not the same thing.[/quote]
If it's trite then GRRM is trite:

[i]Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"
"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him. [/i]
-- AGOT, Bran I

[Anatole Kuragin]

[quote name='BrainFireBob' post='1284011' date='Mar 21 2008, 17.10']Actually, I'm maintaining that being brave and not fearing something, trite as it sounds, are not the same thing.

Bravery is doing something terrifying, or facing your fear.

Simply not fearing something- I suppose you could label that courageous, but really, if it's not fearful or terrifying, it's just a thing you do.[/quote]

Didn't Ned say as much to Bran?

"Do brave people get scared?"

"That's the only time they can be."

Or something like that.

[Anthem]

[quote]I'm still confused how such a man could have had a son like Sam, to be honest.
[quote name='Starkaryan' post='1283302' date='Mar 22 2008, 04.37']It happens. Let me assure you.[/quote][/quote]
I'm no psychologist, so I'll take your word on that.

But when I read Sam's heartbreaking story in AGoT, when he first comes to the Wall, I had to wonder... don't boys start training in swordplay etc. at a very early age? Where did he find the time to play with kittens, sing songs, and get fat? With a father like Randyll, I would've expected him to be a prodigy at weaponry or, more likely, be forced to become one as soon as he popped out his mother's womb.

[quote]But we [b]should[/b] judge Randyll too harshly. House Tarly seems to have become quite important as the Shield of Highgarden in the Reach because Mace Tyrell is pretty inefficient as battle commander. And Randyll is certainly inable to see other the qualities of his son, if all House Tyrell wants of Horn Hill is the finest soldier in the Realm. Maybe Samwell would have been able to become a Lord, but he would have never been able to do for House Tyrell what his father had done. And so the glory of House Tarly would have declined with Lord Samwell.[/quote]
Er, I assume you mean "shouldn't". Nitpicking aside, I highly doubt the next Lord Tyrell (Willas) would require the next Lord Tarly to be a clone of his father. There are plenty of up and coming battle commanders in the Reach, Willas' own brother Garlan among them. Who knows, Willas himself might be a great tactician. Sam, in my modern-day opinion, could have made a great Lord: he's kind, compassionate, possesses a sense of right and wrong - just not the lord his father or his bannermen wanted :(

[quote]Simply not fearing something[/quote]
I once read a quote somewhere, 'Only a fool feels no fear'

[Anatole Kuragin]

[quote name='Anthem' post='1284328' date='Mar 22 2008, 04.43']Where did he find the time to play with kittens, sing songs, and get fat?[/quote]

That's a good question. Sam probably wasn't born weighing several hundred pounds, if Randyll really wanted, couldn't he have told Sam to.. do something?

[Jonathan]

[quote name='BrainFireBob' post='1284011' date='Mar 21 2008, 18.10']Actually, I'm maintaining that being brave and not fearing something, trite as it sounds, are not the same thing.

Bravery is doing something terrifying, or facing your fear.

Simply not fearing something- I suppose you could label that courageous, but really, if it's not fearful or terrifying, it's just a thing you do.[/quote]
No, your mixing up Bravery and Courage-

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvskPFK-ndk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvskPFK-ndk[/url]

[freakinmayhew]

Does anyone think Samwell and his father will have some kind of reconciliation? After all, Sam's in Oldtown now, which is pretty close to Horn Hill. I think Randyll probably expected Sam to die on The Wall. I suppose he'll be pretty shocked to find him studying at the Citadel a couple day's ride away.

[Black Wizard]

Where was Randyll at the end of A[i] Feast for Crows[/i]? Maidenpool wasn't it? That's nowhere near Horn Hill.

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

[quote]Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"
"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him.
If it's trite then GRRM is trite:[/quote]
Well, actually, I am sure I've heard this sentiment many many times before ASOIAF. /sacrilege

I do think it's a bit on sentimental side. It's a great achievement to be afraid of something and to overcome this fear, but people who handle their fears well and are hard to scare are not cowardly - they are brave. I mean, if we go too far with this idea, than fearless people = biggest cowards. That would be pretty ridiculous.

Randyll is brave man, close minded and cruel. I do find Sam to be rather brave as well, myself. I am a real coward and no way I would be acting like Sam. I sure as hell would be too horrified of death by wight to hope he goes for me instead of some wilding brat I barely know. Or fight the way he does. OTOH, I never pissed myself - it's more of a case of weak bladder and ruined nerves, I think, than real proof of total lack of courage. I think Sam is rather physically weak. He not only doesn't want to be a warrior, he simply does not have strenght and talent for these. Even if he was braver, he still wouldn't.

[Illyrio]

Besiding chaining Sam to the wall for three days, Randyll had him bathed in the blood of a bull under the supervision of eastern warlocks in an attempt to make him more of a warrior. And though I forget, I believe that he had said warlocks killed when the spell failed.

How that not fall under evil (that is, evil in Westeros this side of Gregor Cleagane), I don't know.

[Cisite]

I don't think Willas and Sam are comparable.

Willas is crippled, yes, but everything else we've heard about him suggests that he's intelligent, clear headed and capable. Sam, conversly, is unstable, lacking in confidence and prone to fits of self-doubt. These negative qualities rendered him just as unfit for lordship as his weight, or his supposedly effete interests.

[A wilding]

[quote name='Cisite' post='1312060' date='Apr 13 2008, 15.11']Sam, conversely, is unstable, lacking in confidence and prone to fits of self-doubt.[/quote]
Yes, but it is very likely that much of this, or even all of it, is a result of his abusive upbringing. If his father had treated him more sympathetically, who knows?

[freakinmayhew]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1311300' date='Apr 12 2008, 07.23']Where was Randyll at the end of A[i] Feast for Crows[/i]? Maidenpool wasn't it? That's nowhere near Horn Hill.[/quote]

Yes, but he's not going to be there forever, and Samwell might be at the Citadel for quite some time. It could happen that they meet again. However, I doubt that Randyll Tarly has any respect for maesters either.

[snowpaint]

I wouldn't consider Randyll Tarly cruel. From his judgedments at Maidenpool are harsh but fair, like the Hammurabi code. An eye for an eye type of thing.
He did all he could to make his son into a competent leader but he failed. Bathing him in blood just shows how desperate he was. It is surely understandable not wanting your son and heir to wear a chain and serve under another lord, it would be a great sign of weakness for Tarly.

Having sam today as a son would be a disappointment, just imagine how it would have been in Westeros.

[Ned Sand]

It's interesting that aSoIaF puts great emphasis on political genius, some emphasis on personal fighting prowess, but relatively little emphasis on battlefield genius. To borrow from another series, anyone wanting their army to win in the field needs to put a great general in charge of it. Who are the great generals in Westeros?

Randyll Tarly (best)
Robb Stark* (better than 'good')
Tywin Lannister* (at least 'good')
Roose Bolton (??)
Victarion Greyjoy (amphibious assaults)

Who else is really, really good? How would you rank them?

[freakinmayhew]

[quote name='Ned Sand' post='1312595' date='Apr 13 2008, 16.44']It's interesting that aSoIaF puts great emphasis on political genius, some emphasis on personal fighting prowess, but relatively little emphasis on battlefield genius. To borrow from another series, anyone wanting their army to win in the field needs to put a great general in charge of it. Who are the great generals in Westeros?

Randyll Tarly (best)
Robb Stark* (better than 'good')
Tywin Lannister* (at least 'good')
Roose Bolton (??)
Victarion Greyjoy (amphibious assaults)

Who else is really, really good? How would you rank them?[/quote]
Daenerys, definitely.

[Cisite]

[quote name='Ned Sand' post='1312595' date='Apr 13 2008, 22.44']It's interesting that aSoIaF puts great emphasis on political genius, some emphasis on personal fighting prowess, but relatively little emphasis on battlefield genius. To borrow from another series, anyone wanting their army to win in the field needs to put a great general in charge of it. Who are the great generals in Westeros?

Randyll Tarly (best)
Robb Stark* (better than 'good')
Tywin Lannister* (at least 'good')
Roose Bolton (??)
Victarion Greyjoy (amphibious assaults)

Who else is really, really good? How would you rank them?[/quote]

I'd stick Stannis up there, too. Most other characters speak highly of his military prowess, if little else.

This would make a good topic of it's own, I think. :)