Randyll Tarly

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='Ned Sand' post='1312595' date='Apr 13 2008, 15.44']It's interesting that aSoIaF puts great emphasis on political genius, some emphasis on personal fighting prowess, but relatively little emphasis on battlefield genius.[/quote]
I think this reflects what GRRM is comfortable with writing. It would've been cool to see more of the battlefield planning in real time.

[quote name='Ned Sand' post='1312595' date='Apr 13 2008, 15.44']Who are the great generals in Westeros?[/quote]
I would add Ned as better than 'good'.

[Anatole Kuragin]

[quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1312655' date='Apr 13 2008, 17.12']I think this reflects what GRRM is comfortable with writing. It would've been cool to see more of the battlefield planning in real time.


I would add Ned as better than 'good'.[/quote]

Yeah, Ned apparently won some great victories but it's not played on nearly enough, likely Martin's ability to manipulate what people think of the character - in this case he's a benevolent father and realm-saver.

[Illyrio]

[quote]From his judgedments at Maidenpool are harsh but fair, like the Hammurabi code. An eye for an eye type of thing.[/quote]

If you think the Hammurabi code is fair, you should reread your highschool history textbook :P

But I'd add Euron up there as well. More than Victarion in fact. All of Victarion's greatest victories were completely planned by the crow and the only other battle we know of him fighting at involves him losing the bulk of the Iron Fleet.

[Scafloc]

I don't think that Sam would make a good lord or even an average lord.

He is smart, understands people and is sensitive to the need of others but he lacks what a lord needs most: ability to command. Sam simply cannot command others (he would make a great maester!) . If he would be lord he would advice others (very good advice!) and leave it to them to follow it or not. In modern time that would make him a brilliant nurd but not a leader.

[Black Wizard]

Sam is like a fat version of Sheldon from The Big-Bang theory.

[Anatole Kuragin]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1313260' date='Apr 14 2008, 08.56']Sam is like a fat version of Sheldon from The Big-Bang theory.[/quote]

I always thought he was more like a fat, whiny, incompetent, humorless, annoying version of Churchill.

[Coffee]

[quote name='Illyrio' post='1313077' date='Apr 14 2008, 06.12']If you think the Hammurabi code is fair, you should reread your highschool history textbook :P[/quote]

First, the Hammurabi Code wasn't necessarily fair to all parties, but it was a set of laws, and that harshness does discourage further crime. If you see a man killed for petty theft, you aren't going to steal [u]anything[/u].

And we already know Randall as a tough guy who deals in extremes. He [u]had[/u] to have a militaristic son to do well and keep his underlings in check. What self-respecting nobleman is going to obey an overweight coward? Yes, Sam has courage when it's that or death, but he doesn't deal well with intimidation, and he's proved that. Randall did do very cruel things to Sam, but if he had succeeded, he might have prevented a minor rebellion.

[quote name='Illyrio' post='1313077' date='Apr 14 2008, 06.12']But I'd add Euron up there as well. More than Victarion in fact. All of Victarion's greatest victories were completely planned by the crow and the only other battle we know of him fighting at involves him losing the bulk of the Iron Fleet.[/quote]

But, which battle is this were Victarion loses half of the Iron Fleet?

[Anatole Kuragin]

[quote name='Coffee' post='1314034' date='Apr 14 2008, 16.17']But, which battle is this were Victarion loses half of the Iron Fleet?[/quote]

I think he's referring to his defeat against the entire fleets of Redwyne (likely all of Tyrell) and Stannis Baratheon (likely all of the Storm/Sealords fleets as well as the Crown's) which was Victarion's first ever defeat. I'm pretty sure it says "most of the iron fleet" or something like that. Isn't Redwyne a house renowned for their navy, though? And since Stannis was Master of Ships on Robert's council, he's probably no slouch himself.

I think this was also the battle where Aeron "died".


EDIT: Any my point, I doubt Victarion really could have done much to spare the fleet against the full might of the Seven Kingdoms when it came to an open battle to defend the Iron Islands.


EDIT 2: And has Euron done anything to warrant suggesting he wasn't as talented as Victarion? He's pretty much just *planned* raids.

[Ned Sand]

[quote name='Coffee' post='1314034' date='Apr 14 2008, 18.17']First, the Hammurabi Code wasn't necessarily fair to all parties, but it was a set of laws, and that harshness does discourage further crime.[/quote]The Hammurabi Code also gets props for applying the law to (more-or-less) everyone. That's a big improvement over having nobles applying the law downward on their subjects but the subjects being totally unable to apply the law upwards on their betters.

[Anatole Kuragin]

Can you guys quit arguing about the Hammurabi Code and get back on topic, please?

[Paxter]

Why would anyone waste their breath attacking or defending Randyll? He's a first-class douche and we all know it. :pirate:

BTW this thread's pretty nerdy by your standards. You actually wrote more than a one-line post? :shocked:

[Talleyrand]

Did you just tell a three year old post to get back on topic?

OT: I don't think Tarly's actually that good a leader. I mean we only here of two of his battles. The first is against Robert, not a man renowned for his tactical genius. And in his second the enemy walk into his trap and he outnumbers them yet he still takes heavy losses

[enigma]

Did you just tell a three year old post to get back on topic?

OT: I don't think Tarly's actually that good a leader. I mean we only here of two of his battles. The first is against Robert, not a man renowned for his tactical genius. And in his second the enemy walk into his trap and he outnumbers them yet he still takes heavy losses

You're not giving Tarly enough credit - he's called the finest soldier in the realm by Kevan for a reason. First, you're saying that "Robert not a man renowned for his tactical genius". Like beating Robert doesn't 'count' for some reason. There's no proof of Robert being tactically inept, tut there are statements of Robert kicking ass.

- ASoS: "...At Summerhall he [Robert] won three battles in a single day, and brought Lords Grandison and Cafferen back to Storm’s End as prisoners." Afterwards, Robert swayed the loyalties of Grandison and Cafferen to his side, both of whom died for him fighting against the Targaryens.

- He helped win the Battle of the Bells, by coming out to boost the morale of his troops. He slew six men, including Myles Mooton, a squire of Rhaegar.

- And of course he personally slew Rhaegar at the trident, which immediately won him the battle.

Secondly you claim that "the enemy [stark-Tully] walk into his trap and he outnumbers them yet he still takes heavy losses." I do not think GRRM meant to imply that Randyll meant to ambush Glover's forces.

- ASoS: “Yesterday at dawn our brave Lord Randyll caught Robett Glover outside Duskendale and trapped him against the sea. Losses were heavy on both sides, but in the end our loyal men prevailed. Ser Helman Tallhart is reported dead, with a thousand others. Robett Glover leads the survivors back toward Harrenhal in bloody disarray, little dreaming he will find valiant Ser Gregor and his stalwarts athwart his path.

What happens is that Tarly had tracked The Glover-Tallhart army and had forced them to commit to a battle with their backs against water. When Tarly won the battle, Tallhart was utterly annihilated with all his men, and Glover was badly mauled and forced to retreat into Gregor's army.

What I'm trying to say, is that Tarly kicks ass and chews bubblegum, so you take that back!

[Tyler Snow]

Being the finest soldier in the realm =/= being the best general. Tarly has a penchant for violence, you can have no doubt, but is a follower of orders and, most likely, rather blunt in his handling of battlefield tactics. I'll give him credit for trapping Robett but only so much as taking the opportunity as it opened, that victory was owed more to Glover's folly than Tarly's genius.

I think that is why Kevan sees him as a perfect Hand for wartime. He will follow the orders of the small council/King without question as his duty commands him. In peace time, with alliances and deals being brokered, Tarly would certainly always favor action.

Personally, I don't think Tarly is evil. I find Sam, in the beginning, to be utterly contemptible but he seems to grow in strength away from his father. The pressure Tarly put on Sam is, what I think, drove Sam to be "craven". Basically, the expectations were so high for him that, rather than really try to prove himself and fail, Sam simply caved in and gave up. Better to fail from not trying than trying your best and failing it would seem.

Obviously, Dickon had it much easier since simply being an average boy, or at least not as "craven" as Sam, would be seen as a gigantic step forward for Tarly. After that, like many had said, it was a political move to force Sam's abdication. Dickon, surely urged by friends, would have sought the title for himself in time with his "craven" Lord brother getting bossed around and intimidated.

Tarly is poorly educated and a hard man who did not know how to nurture his eldest son. The constant pressure and expectations drove Sam into his current state and, as a result, lowered them for Dickon. I think Tarly recognized Sam could be a Maester but he finds the act of servitude and abandonment of martial honor so disquieting that he could not cope with it and, so, to eliminate strife for his lands and people and still get whatever martial honor out of his eldest son he could, sent Sam to the NW.

Is he evil? Eh, I don't like him personally. He seems hard and doesn't seem particularly endearing but, if you want a job done, no nonsense, send in Tarly.

Stannis and Tarly could probably have a snowball fight in Hell they are so cold.

[Anatole Kuragin]

I'm just going to write off fl00b posts by saying Tarly wasn't in the show yet so you can't possibly understand his greatness.

[Queen in the North]

I'm just going to write off fl00b posts by saying Tarly wasn't in the show yet so you can't possibly understand his greatness.

Completely off-topic, but I've been wondering: what is a fl00b?

On topic: anyone who is saying that Randyll's treatment of Sam isn't horrible... I don't even know what to say to that. It may be less awful than some of the horrors in these books, but that does NOT make it okay.

[A wilding]

Completely off-topic, but I've been wondering: what is a fl00b?

Anyone who has to ask definitely is one.

(Think n00b.)

[ryamano]

Given his situation, I think sending Sam to the Wall was probably the best thing Randyll could have done, with the possible exception of sending him to the Citadel. Of course this way, any claim Sam could have made is rendered invalid.

IIRC, neitther septons nor maesters inherit titles. I still don't understand why Randy sent Sam to the Wall instead of Oldtown. Maybe he was afraid Sam would tell his mother what really happened later? Oldtown isn't that far away from his father's land, while the Wall is half a world away.

[feardeathbywater]

I doubt that what pre-Watch Sam became, despite his father's pressure, could be called a victory for anyone. He was reluctant and afraid to do hard, unpleasant things. He never had sufficient will to do them: he just gave up. Randyll had no idea how to motivate him, for neither fear nor praise (did Sam ever, ever shape up in hopes of winning anyone's approval?) produced any change of behavior.

Even exile and total immersion in a warrior culture had no immediate effect. Only in a moment of extreme exhaustion did he do something brave. Bravery was forced on him at long last -for nowhere did his father actually threaten to kill him except when he'd already decided to send him to the Wall. He only advanced and struck when he was sure he was going to die, too tired to run or even fear and numbed by horror.

The change from craven to less-craven was a gradual one, only capped by being forced to fight the Other. It began with exile to the wall. Once there, cowardice and inability weren't enough to save him from training. A recruit has no choice; ergo, all recruits perform. You can't leave the Watch (and its not like Sam could have survived on his own anyway) or straggle along. From their first day the only ONLY option is to succeed -so everyone who can does. Two other factors came into play as well: first, the few people who sympathized with him wanted him to succeed and, instead of ridiculing his shortcomings, pushed him to overcome them. Second, he was surrounded by other men, many of them his own age, who were willing to let him join their society -once he had earned his way in. There are no "roles" in the Watch, no titles. Sam was just another recruit on perhaps the most level playing field in Westeros. He wasde facto part of an elite organization, one with proud traditions and a long history of producing competent soldiers. If anyone could have changed Sam, they were it.

Sam may have been unlucky in his father in one important respect: Randyll is exceptional. He is a winning general who wins by going further, "stealing a march" on his opponents. Even a basically competent fighter and ruler would not have measured up. I imagine he has seen run-of-the-mill knights and lordlings schooled by people like him over and over again, and that this has shaped his view of what is an acceptable performance from his children. Look at what he requires from his troops (who are probably better disciplined, and thus more likely to survive.)

[feardeathbywater]

IIRC, neitther septons nor maesters inherit titles. I still don't understand why Randy sent Sam to the Wall instead of Oldtown. Maybe he was afraid Sam would tell his mother what really happened later? Oldtown isn't that far away from his father's land, while the Wall is half a world away.

Maester Aemon was offered the throne despite already wearing the chain. He took the black to reinforce his refusal and make sure he could not be used as a pawn in someone's court intrigue.