Goodkind XXXVI. Moral pie with celery sauce

[The Shining Enigma]

[font="Book Antiqua"][size=3]In effect, many of you could very well be enigmas, - you simply forgo the use of the name. It is possible you all are wielding dual personalities so as to provide the opportunity for a situation such as the one we have here presented here. It would make for an interesting investigation.

In any case, my obviously benignant persona lends a most advantageous touch to this board of discussion. You will not be led astray by the Shining Enigma.

Have a good day, all. [/size][/font]

[The Pita]

Next thread title:
GOODKIND XXXVII: Now we know who Enigma is
Subtitle: He's the sled!

[Wine-skin changer]

[quote name='Myshkin' post='1306587' date='Apr 8 2008, 14.49']I would advise staying away from bratty kids until it goes back down. It authorities can be so weird about kicking children, even when the kid clearly deserves it.[/quote]

well, I'll just read the arresting officer HIS rights, in the form of a long winded speech. Once I have the officer dazed with my speech attack, I'll pretend to stretch, snatching his spine out through his chest. I won't feel one bit bad either, clearly he deserved it for attempting to infringe on my freedom, I'll never wear another collar, THE CREATOR SAVE ANYONE WHO ATTEMPTS TO PUT ONE ON ME!!!!!!!!!!

[Fanatic-Templar]

I'm certainly not Enigma - when I pretend to be Terry Goodkind, I speak in all caps, as befits the Leafblighter.

[Jaxom 1974]

[quote name='The Wolf Maid' post='1305553' date='Apr 8 2008, 04.32']Okay, so does this mean Tairy is OK with beastiality as Gratch fancies Richard?[/quote]

I always thought that Gratch was more of a metaphor for all the ugly people out there who secretly long for a specimen like Richard to long after...

[greenMockingbird]

Gratch is the only other character with a catchphrase. He must be Goodkind's rebuttal to all those who argue that his characters are indistinguishable in conversation.

That said, I actually liked Gratch. He seemed like a decent guy, in direct contrast to those he hung out with. I mean, didn't Richard kill his mother? How many people could be raised by their mother's killer and turn out half so well? (and not milk it for any angst, either)

See, this is why he loves 'Raaach aaarg'. It's a simple case of Stockholm's.

[The Pita]

Goodkind XXXVII: Graatch Luuug Raatch Aaarg
Subtitle: Stockholm's has never been this fun.

You see, the more thread titles I nominate, the higher the chance that someone will start a new thread with them.

[Black Wizard]

[quote name='greenMockingbird' post='1308589' date='Apr 10 2008, 05.14']Gratch is the only other character with a catchphrase. He must be Goodkind's rebuttal to all those who argue that his characters are indistinguishable in conversation.[/quote]
Hey, Zedd had a catchphrase: "Bags!"

He got shit later on though, all that lecturing about webs and shit.

[theMountainGoat]

I find it amusing that Black Wizard came here to complain about the plotting and characterisation of SoT - you should realise that us Lemmings are here to point out the deeper flaws of Tairy's work. Its not just the plotting that was bad there was so much more going on beneath the surface which you may have missed. Allow me to explain.

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1306248' date='Apr 8 2008, 19.25']The [i]Sword of Truth[/i] series started of very well. [i]Wizard's First Rule[/i] is a great read and the next two or three books are also pretty good.[/quote]
Started off well? Not sure I agree with that. Some people would say it started off with "it was an odd looking vine" and went rapidly downhill from there :P

In my opinion WFR [b][i]seemed[/i][/b] like an average page turning pulp fantasy, a light read that you didn't take too seriously and just filled the gap between the really good books you were waiting for. But that’s just it you see by not looking deeper at it you miss the Objectivist Philosophy that is being subconsciously injected into your brain and somehow you also miss the stupidity and obscenity of the story not to mention just how awful the writing is.

As Tairy ramped up the philosophising in later books it became more and more obvious what was going on and people woke up, realised just how bad these books were and dumped them. Most people dropped the series around Pillars of Creation which did not even have Richard in it (though that should have been an improvement really) or after Naked Empire where he kills Peace Protestors :sick:

My last book was Pillars of Creation but some people just have to finish the series no matter how bad it is. Of course I don't include Mad Moose amongst these masochistic readers since he was taking the pain for the mutual benefit of the Lemming Brethren and we salute him for this hard work.

So now that you have finished the series you should take a look back over the books and really think about what was going on there. Remember the first book? The one you said was a "great read". Perhaps you should go back and read it again, preferably after just finishing a GRRM or Bakker book, which will really help you to keep your mind, focused on what good quality writing really is.

Some stuff to keep your eyes open for: the fire speech - I mean WTF? It is unbelievably stupid. The bit where Zedd makes everyone think their genitals have disappeared - it’s just bizarre. Later in the book of course you have the bit where Kahlan makes the paedophile cut off and eat his own balls. This may seem like a just punishment for his crimes but the important thing you have to remember is that this is what Tairy believes should be done in the real world to these people.

Then you have the whole torture section of the book during which Richard kicks an 8 year old girl in the jaw breaking her teeth and causing her to bite off her own tongue. He does this simply because she makes an empty threat against Kahlan. If the previous example of what should be done to Paedophiles stands as Tairy's idea of justice then what is this scenario? Does he really believe children should be held accountable for their actions and punished as such? Richard certainly never has a moment of self-doubt over this, no feeling of guilt or remorse. In fact he smirks about it afterwards.

Now this is an argument that goes round and round forever and a day between Tairy fans and Lemmings. The crucial fact to keep in mind here is that Tairy has said time and time again that Richard is a perfect example of what a man should be, a hero to look up to, someone that everyone should aspire to be like, not to mention that Terry Goodkind considers Richard to be him in the books. Richard does what Tairy would do if Tairy were in that situation.

When you think about it that’s really fucking sick and scary.

That was just the first book. The rest of the series provides plenty more examples of just how twisted the SoT really is. Remember the Namble? The Nipple magic? How about where Drefan has his spine broken yet still stands up to take another swing at Richard? The bit where Kahlan loses her virginity to Richard and then goes to suck him off and she tastes her blood on him :sick: . How about the chicken that is not a chicken? Surely you could not have read that without wondering whether Tairy was out of his mind?

Then later in the series you have the worst aspects: Richard explains why Communism is bad and defeats it by making a statue??? Killing unarmed peace protestors??? Then upon realising he cannot beat the Imperial Army he sends his own army to the Empire to begin a campaign of Genocide on anyone who supports the enemy - men, women, children - and this is then justified as not only the best course of action, but the only morally right thing to do. As one of his own soldiers points out "does this not make us as bad as them?" But Richard claims they are doing it for the "right" reasons, it is not wrong if we do it.

Then you get the same argument made over the issue of torture. Nicci realises that when she was a torturer for Emperor Jagang that was wrong, but now she is a torturer for Richard and therefore it is perfectly alright and acceptable :sick:. The final insult you might say is when Richard becomes God, creates a new world and decides who gets to live there and who stays in the original world. This was the ending Tairy had been building towards for the entire series??? WTF does not even begin to cover it.

There is a lot more of course which you can read by going back over the many Goodkind threads if you are so inclined and have the time. Almost everyone here is a former reader who has seen the light so to speak and now writes parodies to take the piss out of Tairy and SoT or more serious posts like this to try and spread the word.

[Exa Inova]

[quote name='theMountainGoat' post='1308885' date='Apr 10 2008, 15.27']Started off well? Not sure I agree with that. Some people would say it started off with "it was an odd looking vine" and went rapidly downhill from there :P

<snkt>
or after Naked Empire where he kills Peace Protestors :sick:

<snckt>

Some stuff to keep your eyes open for: the [b]fire speech[/b] - I mean WTF? It is unbelievably stupid. The bit where Zedd makes everyone think their genitals have disappeared - it’s just bizarre. Later in the book of course you have the bit where Kahlan makes the paedophile [b]cut off and eat his own balls[/b]. This may seem like a just punishment for his crimes but the important thing you have to remember is that this is what Tairy believes should be done in the real world to these people.

Then you have the whole torture section of the book during which Richard [b]kicks an 8 year old girl in the jaw breaking her teeth and causing her to bite off her own tongue[/b].

When you think about it that’s really fucking sick and scary.

That was just the first book. The rest of the series provides plenty more examples of just how twisted the SoT really is. [b]Remember the Namble?[/b] The Nipple magic? How about where Drefan [b]has his spine broken[/b] yet still stands up to take another swing at Richard? The bit where Kahlan loses her virginity to Richard and then [b]goes to suck him off and she tastes her blood[/b] on him :sick: . How about the [b]chicken that is not a chicken[/b]? Surely you could not have read that without wondering whether Tairy was out of his mind?

Then later in the series you have the worst aspects: [b]Richard explains why Communism is bad and defeats it by making a statue??? Killing unarmed peace protestors???[/b] Then upon realising he cannot beat the Imperial Army he sends his own army to the Empire to begin a campaign of Genocide on anyone who supports the enemy - men, women, children - and this is then justified as not only the best course of action, but the only morally right thing to do. As one of his own soldiers points out "does this not make us as bad as them?" But Richard claims they are doing it for the "right" reasons, it is not wrong if we do it.

Then you get the same argument made over the issue of torture. Nicci realises that when she was a torturer for Emperor Jagang that was wrong, but now she is a torturer for Richard and therefore it is perfectly alright and acceptable :sick: . The final insult you might say is when Richard becomes God, creates a new world and decides who gets to live there and who stays in the original world. This was the ending Tairy had been building towards for the entire series??? WTF does not even begin to cover it.[/quote]

Aaaaah......meeeemorieeees!! :mellow:

[greenMockingbird]

Yeah, it's the fact that Sword of Truth is supposed to be didatic that riles a lot of people. Lots of people don't mind the writing, or aren't that picky, or simply think its not important. Honestly, if the worst of Goodkind's literary sins was the chicken that is not a chicken, say, then no one would care. I mean, people would still laugh, but we have around 36 threads on this board. You don't get that for simple crummy writing. Goodkind gets this sort of attention because he seems to be presenting these books almost as fables, as stories with an obvious and antisocial moral. It's the "mailed boot/fist/sword of Justice" thing that creeps us out.
Note, this is also kind of par for the course for pulp fantasy, but most heroes in those are at least somewhat compassionate and regret what they do (at least a little). These stories praise things like stout hearts, or kindness, or love, or hard work, or redemption.
On the other hand, life in Conan-style adventures is made out to be nasty, brutish, and short. Heroes are therefore brutal and amoral, and are portrayed as good guys only insofar as they are fighting the badder guys.
Either way, these kinds of stories both acknowledge a pretty basic sense of right and wrong, regardless of where they stand. I don't see Goodkind's hero as adhering to these same standards, which is scary because he's supposed to be a paragon of virtue, not an anti-hero. And his friends are generally worse.

Of course, I may be making mountains out of molehills, here. The fact remains that he is an extraordinarily entertaining fellow, in a backhanded, tragic kind of way, and his followers are generally worse.

[greenMockingbird]

R.A. Salvatore tops that by brandishing a sword in some of his photos.

Goodkind's only mildly goofy by comparison.

[respectabull]

I think people liked WFR at first because they were looking for a hero and kind of found one. Dick saves Klan from eminent rape, he learns the truth about his father, grandfather, and the rest of the world and then sets out on a quest to save the world by simply hiding boxes from an uber-powerful dark wizard who is trying to give the world to the lord of the underworld or whatever. A simple, standard fantasy plot. You add in that Richard is slowly learning about himself and somewhat of a goof ball trying to find his way in the world. He falls in love, gets his heart broken, and eventually figures a way to be with this supposed Queen of the Midlands and he gets to have sex with her. Its a story about a boy growing up. Not so bad right?

Well, the boy becomes a self-righteous douche who kicks little girls and fucks his torturer. Yes, ... disturbing. But there are fight scenes!!!!!

What I'm trying to say is that people liked Dick at first because he was a human being at one point who didn't assume he knew everything. Once you like a character, and as long as the author is trying to highlight the characters heroic aspects it becomes easy to miss the weird problems that are right in front of your face. Hell, thats the reason I read the books in the first place. I liked Richard and Klan. I was in 9th grade... but i liked them.

Now I hate them, and I hate Tairy. His fans suck and his message boards are run by fascists. So I said fuck it and became a lemming instead.

[Foreverlad]

I think the saddest bit of all is that despite giving constant props to Ayn Rand for her creation and ideas, Tairy talks and acts as if he's been creating The Bible.

I've read everything Goofking has produced, and the ONLY way I'll ever read anything else is if he creates a villain who is the ABSOLUTE End-all-be-all objectivist who takes Dick's lessons and morals to the utter extreme and shows how evil and disgusting the philosophy is.

Forget taking a Kingdom by force. Forgot raping the children. Let's have the bad guy buy out the kingdom with money he earned off the backs of the slaves stuck in his employ who were forced to work to help settle the debts the kingdom forced onto them. Then we can have whole chapters dedicated to the starving masses who are so impoverished and starved they're unable to continue work or feed themselves. The big villain walks onto the scene and laughs. "This is the only life you have. Rise up and live it! If you want to eat you must destroy your government for they tell you how to live! If you wish to live as you would, you must kill all authority figures! NO ONE CAN TELL YOU HOW TO LIVE!!"

Then some poor toothless ragged old hag says "sonny, 'm too old ta work. Muh lungs, the doctuhs say they're shallow"

"Ah, so instead of rising up and living, you choose to lay down and die?"

"No, I ain't sayin that, its jus-"

"Ma'am, let me ask you something. Do you like peas?"

"Ima starved 'n I aint got more 'n a stale heel a bread o'er the last week. Course I like peas."

"Well, funny thing is, I don't. Now, just because I don't like peas, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to have them. We all have our own personal tastes"

"You gon gimme some peas? So hungry, meh belly don' rumble no more. Don' care if they cooked, any peas be fine if it please ya."

"As I was saying, we each have our own desires. Myself? I choose to work hard and succeed. Because I'm smarter and in fine health. Personally? Personally, I have no concerns for citizens of your ilk, I don't mind watching you suffer. I rise up and live-"

"So no peas?" she asks as a fine strand of mud is born as a fresh tear meets the dirt of her cheek.

He swings his foot, dislodging her chest from her body and sending her ribs outward in a cascade of cascadiness.

"while you choose to lie down and die."

I'd actually read that. If Gonemind would show that 'his way' isn't much smarter than that which he opposes. Fortunately, he'll never talk bad about Objectivism, so I needn't concern myself with feeding the yeard.

[The Shining Enigma]

[font="Book Antiqua"][size=3]Let justice and light prevail, in conjunction with Truth. [/size][/font]

[Moosicus]

[quote name='The Shining Enigma' post='1309545' date='Apr 10 2008, 17.54'][font="Book Antiqua"][size=3]Let justice and light prevail, in conjunction with Truth. [/size][/font][/quote]
*yawn*

[greenMockingbird]

Darkness is more fun, so long as it's a 'perky' darkness.

Um, why is truth capitalized? Is it like Death? Is it... the anthropomorphic personification of Truth?



:o

[Padreic]

What happens then if Truth says "All anthropomorphic personifications of truth lie constantly."?

[The Wolf Maid]

[quote name='Un-Yearded Pita' post='1307271' date='Apr 9 2008, 16.55']Maybe WLU=Enigma because WLU hasn't been here at all since like XXX or something.[/quote]
That was my suspicion as well. They even use the same font. :D

[quote name='Triskele' post='1309584' date='Apr 11 2008, 05.30']Enigma, somehow I get the feeling that Mr. Crowley and Mr. Goodking would not get along.[/quote]
[s][size=1]no, they'd be having mad hate sex.[/size][/s]

[Saruto]

So I just finished [b]The Blood of the Fold[/b]. All in all, before I found this forum I thought TSoT was an OKAY series. I'm reading ASOIAF at the same time so you know which one I obviously thought was better. My question is.....should I continue? I might just read this entire series...for the LULZ.