[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 3 but actually Jon 1

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

[quote name='grinachu' post='1305276' date='Apr 7 2008, 22.26']Incidentally those who think Jon is becoming a total bad ass as Lord Commander, should consider what Tywin would have done. Tywin would have arrested Janos publicly, had the truth tortured from him in some dungeon, and then had him publicly hanged. Littlefinger would have promised Slynt a pardon, and then hanged him after having the truth. Jon isn't in their league, yet.[/quote]

The issue (at least with option Tywin) isn't insufficient bad-assery, though. Jon's position is fragile, and he couldn't have afforded a delay, as that would be time in which Alliser Thorne might rally some of Slynt's followers for a public challenge. And option Littlefinger doesn't make a lot of sense; why would Janos be swayed by the offer of a pardon, when he has no respect for Jon's authority and until the last possible moment doesn't genuinely believe that anything would happen to him anyway? Arya might as well have offered to pardon the Hound, when they met in ASoS.

Besides which, what good would information about Ned's death do Jon anyway? Suppose he learns _everything_ (and I don't think Janos necessarily knew everything, but we can argue that in another thread). Suppose Jon has from Janos that Littlefinger was behind Ned's death. What does Jon do with that information? Littlefinger is at the Vale, a thousand leagues away, and Jon doesn't have a sufficient force to challenge him or anybody else, even if he wanted to. Even if he could have made a move, it would only be at the expense of defending the Wall properly and (possibly) sacrificing all of humanity. Myopic selfishness hardly seems like a necessarily "bad ass" trait. Edited April 8, 2008 by The Fat Man

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='Ran' post='1304480' date='Apr 7 2008, 20.09']Precisely. The plan was clearly to have the unwitting Night's Watch carry the corpses that last crucial distance to the other side of the Wall, [s]so that they could awaken on that side.[/s][/quote]so that they didn't have to open the gate themselves. (imo)

However, I think the Others first have to touch their victim somehow before they can use it as a wightified attacker. Janos is probably save from Others, hanging 600 feet above the ground.

[Ran]

Roi,

Note that Coldhands -- who seems to be wightish -- was unable to pass the Wall as well.

Magic just doesn't work on or through the Wall. Edited April 8, 2008 by Ran

[Roi Woodt]

Ran,

We had this discussion a long time ago, I am prepared to take up arms again, but in the end we probably disagree again. I did want to create a seperate topic to avoid kidnapping this thread, however, I am unable to do that.

I think the magic in the Wall is meant to stop the Others, some side-efects of the magic are that the "warg"-bond cannot be felt through the Wall. Other magical things aren't stopped, like Mel feeling hot, Stannis glowing sword, weirwood communication.

And in my opinion Coldhands is not comparable with Wights. He seem to be able to talk and think for himself, it looks like he controls ravens and is riding a living Elk. He is more like a magical creature, such as a child of the forest and an Other, then a zombie.

[Ran]

Fair enough. Obviously some magic seems to work (that said, as I recall, Stannis and Melisandre are not literally in the wall whenever they do their magical things -- they are on top, or beside, but not _in_ it), but in any case, the magic of the Others -- and related magic, and maybe some other magics we can't define -- don't work through the Wall. It's a barrier where that magic stops dead.

I said he was wightified, not that he was a wight. ;) He has the black, cold hands of the wights, after all. My guess is that he [i]was[/i] a wight who the children wrested away from the Others and were able to restore his humanity. Just a guess, though.

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='Ran' post='1305606' date='Apr 8 2008, 12.29']It's a barrier where that magic stops dead.[/quote] Why didn't the Wights walk closer to the Wall?

[quote]I said he was wightified, not that he was a wight. ;) He has the black, cold hands of the wights, after all. My guess is that he [i]was[/i] a wight who the children wrested away from the Others and were able to restore his humanity. Just a guess, though.[/quote] I agree here, although I think your wresting away is different from mine :). I think you see them as programmed "robots", iirc, and they removed that from his brain and gave him his own body back. I think they resurrected him (kinda like the beric way) which brought him back to live and therefor he was able to remove the Wight-bond himself.

[Ran]

Roi,

[quote]Why didn't the Wights walk closer to the Wall?[/quote]

Who knows? Dumping them right outside the Wall may have seemed too suspicious even to the Others, I suppose. Jon never suggests that he loses track of Ghost some distance beyond the Wall, in any case -- the Wall itself is the barrier.

Similarly, consider Melisandre and the walls of the Storm's End, seemingly protected in similar fashion. She merely had to pass through the walls to be able to use her magic. She didn't have to pass through and then go some significant distance beyond, at least according to anything she indicated.

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='Ran' post='1305668' date='Apr 8 2008, 13.47']Who knows? Dumping them right outside the Wall may have seemed too suspicious even to the Others, I suppose. Jon never suggests that he loses track of Ghost some distance beyond the Wall, in any case -- the Wall itself is the barrier.[/quote]
The problem I have is that if everything was programmed beforehand, the amount of luck they have is tremendous. First they are found accidentely by a direwolf at an unknown moment, second, they are transported to the other side of the Wall. Third, one is able to attack the watchers while the other is programmed to kill the commander, which works out pretty well, except for same mentioned direwolf. For me, it's much easier to believe that with an unbelievable amount of luck (maybe it wasn't even intended) the wights were on the Other side of the Wall when the Others opened their eyes, they took this oppurtunity to "wight" one of them to the commander tower and the other one they took to create some distraction.

It would be strange that one from of magic can reach through the Wall, while another cannot, but it's not entirely unthinkable. Maybe the children made a mistake, or they didn't have spells to stop this kind of magic and accidentally stopped the warging, but not the wighting.

Another thing, the Others have also wightified animals, if I remember correctly one of them is riding a wighted horse. Apparently, they use it for speed. How could such a horse be programmed? Looks to me it's easier to "wight' a horse and make it move towards the direction you want it to move. Hopefully I am not wrong about the horse...


[quote]Similarly, consider Melisandre and the walls of the Storm's End, seemingly protected in similar fashion. She merely had to pass through the walls to be able to use her magic. She didn't have to pass through and then go some significant distance beyond, at least according to anything she indicated.[/quote] I don't think a shadow could pass through the Wall either, that's a magical creature, while a Wight is a magically abused human.

[Benjen]

I have been thinking that the Others are in some sense "warging" the wights and lending them the volition to move, though the wights do seem to retain some trace of memory that the Others have access to. The demeanor of the wights certainly appears to reflect that of the Others, and there is the blue glowing eyes of the wights, so very much like the Others. How else could the wights sense Varamyr when he warged into the wolf One-Eye for the second life unless those that give them their power sensed his arrival?

Varamyr also said that once an animal has been bonded by a warg, any warg can wear it's skin, which would support Coldhands once being a wight but being "taken" by a more powerful (or proximate) warg.

As to Jafer and Othor (the wight brothers), I think that's where they were when dawn came on the morning they were found. In the GoT prologue Will saw what he thought were dead wildlings lying around their camp, but they were wights lying like the dead during the day. When the NW brothers returned to the scene after the sun went down the wights were gone, and the Others were waiting.

The Others can't do their work in daylight and therefore the wights can't either because the wight in and of itself is a dead thing, and there is no will available to drive a wight when the sun is up. Edited April 8, 2008 by Benjen

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='Benjen' post='1305750' date='Apr 8 2008, 15.24']though the wights do seem to retain some trace of memory that the Others have access to.[/quote]
Really? Because one of the Wights walked to the Lord Commander's office, or is there more evidence that points towards this, perhaps I have forgotten something.

The Others are clearly intelligent, maybe they already knew how to reach the Lord Commander's room, maybe the Wight went there accidently, maybe the Other that was looking trough the eyes of the Wight was a smart one and figured out that some sort of important person had to be in that tower. Imo, there could be more then one reason why the Wight was able to walk directly to Mormont's room.

[Benjen]

[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1305780' date='Apr 8 2008, 08.57']Really? Because one of the Wights walked to the Lord Commander's office, or is there more evidence that points towards this, perhaps I have forgotten something.

The Others are clearly intelligent, maybe they already knew how to reach the Lord Commander's room, maybe the Wight went there accidently, maybe the Other that was looking trough the eyes of the Wight was a smart one and figured out that some sort of important person had to be in that tower. Imo, there could be more then one reason why the Wight was able to walk directly to Mormont's room.[/quote]
Well, there was the fact that Jafer and Othor were found so very close to Castle Black. I doubt the Others knew at that point which gates could be opened, but Jafer and Othor sure did. I can see where that one is debatable though...

And while Othor the wight went after LC Mormont, Jafer the wight went after and killed Ser Jaremy Rykker, who was second in charge of the rangers behind Benjen. I doubt the Others knew that or figured it out because of the layout of Castle Black.

[Krafus]

Incredible chapter. Talk about showing the pack who's the alpha male! And if Jon indeed becomes "greyer," the people who'd disliked him for being the closest thing to a typical fantasy hero might warm up to him.

Oh, and it looks like Jon successfully stared down Thorne. Maybe that and Slynt's execution will just make Thorne become more covert in his opposition to Jon, but I wouldn't be surprised if some members of the Watch who'd previously backed the Slynt/Thorne duo or just disliked Jon were now more well-disposed toward the new LC.

[Jaak]

Breaking neckbone by drop hanging is actually a rather hard to do, and easy to mess up.

Consider that neckbone is the strongest part of the neck. If you break it, you do not need much extra force to tear the flesh up and get the head completely torn off.

This quite sometimes happens on drop hanging. And on suicides who use a long rope.

A breakneck long drop hanging uses less than ten feet of rope, and sometimes fails. 100 feet is quite sure to tear the head off.

[alguien]

[quote name='Ran' post='1305606' date='Apr 8 2008, 06.29']I said he was wightified, not that he was a wight. ;) He has the black, cold hands of the wights, after all. My guess is that he [i]was[/i] a wight who the children wrested away from the Others and were able to restore his humanity. Just a guess, though.[/quote]

I like that idea a lot actually.

I've often wondered if wights are the warg -beast equivalent for the Others. (ie: Others see through the wights eyes, control their actions, etc.) It would make sense for the Children to be able to do this too, albeit in a more humane way.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

We actually know that some forms of magic can reach through the Wall while others cannot. A warging link is broken and Coldhands cannot pass beneath it, but the three-eyed crow can communicate to Bran and Jojen while being beyond the Wall, and Bran can send messages to Jon. Having said that, I'm a little skeptical of parts of your position here, RW.

For one thing, Othor and Jafer Flowers clearly were already wighted before they were taken beneath the Wall; it's noted that they already have the sort of blue eyes associated with being a wight while the black brothers are examining them.

Secondly, it's not particularly lucky that O & JF were found where they were. The Night's Watch still sends out stewards to chop wood for Castle Black, Jeor Mormont had sent out a number of expeditions to find the trail of Benjen Stark, and (as we've seen) occasionally the Night's Watch wanders forth to undergo the initiation ceremony beyond the Wall. It's not that unlucky to think that perhaps one of the many people who are going into the haunted forest would stumble over the two of them, especially given that they were the object of several rangings.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Whether or not the Others can, or normally do, [i]directly[/i] warg their wights (and it seems probable that the Others usually have some form of telepathic access to information that the wight's have gleaned) the fact that Jafer and Othor were able to function on the south side of the wall suggests that they must have an 'autopilot' mode. Still animated by the power the Others gave them, and operating under pre-existing orders, but with their previous remote link broken. Unless their school of warging is more powerful than Jon's ability...but wouldn't the Wall have been specifically designed to stop [i]them[/i]?

[cybroleach]

I really dont see why we need to jump to the Others being wargs with the wights there's nothing to suggest this and there's that whole wall=/=warging issue.

Jafar and Othor:
1. two rangers being looked for
2. were right near Castle Black
3. stealthy went right after Lord Moromont and Ser Rykker (the two sr personel at the Wall)
3pts proves a line.
This was no act of chance they were on a mission that was 50% sucessful.

From this whole sinario they appear to me more or less minions now who follow the Other cause yet retain their prevous knowledge. Edited April 8, 2008 by cybroleach

[urizen]

Any explanation as to why Jon chose Giant to command a castle? The reasons for Jon chosing Slynt we know, getting him away from Thorne/Castle Black etc but do we see any motives for Giant being chosen?

[Prince of the North]

The two wights at the Wall seem to be a classic "Trojan Horse" ploy to me. I theorize that the entire Wall is not warded against magic, just the portals (i.e. the Black Gate, etc.) Thus, the "animated" wights were walked up close to the Wall during the night, "de-animated", carried through a warded gate by unsuspecting NW brothers and "re-animated" once inside. I don't know how they knew where to go. I guess I'm on board with the idea that the Others could somehow get that info from them.

Now, don't get me wrong. I know magic had to go into creating the Wall. I just don't think the entire Wall has to be warded. After all, it's a damn big physical barrier already. Also, I don't really subscribe to the idea that there are different "types" of magic that the Wall is warded against. I think there is simply "magic" that is used in many different ways. Thus, I think the gates through the Wall are warded against magic, plain and simple.

Oh, and by the way, Coldhands is the resurrected Benjen Stark brought back in the same way as Beric Donderrion and Lady Stoneheart. That's why he couldn't pass through the Black Gate either ;)

[Ran]

I very much doubt some Red Priest gave Coldhands the kiss of fire. ;) And still, the black hands don't suggest he just died and then was magically revived into something like full health. He's a wight with volition and humanity.

As to the warding, it must be the whole Wall that's warded, IMO. Jon can't feel Ghost when he's south of the Wall, until Ghost gets south of the Wall as well.