[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 3 but actually Jon 1

[SpaceChampion]

Nice chapter. I can't believe I missed this thread two years ago.

Well, it really would make sense if Starks always behead traitorous members of the NW. There has to be a reason why Ned traveled to that Keep to execute Gared. Sure, he was the in charge of this business, but he certainly was unable to execute every death sentence in the whole North or his lands personally.

Ned didn't travel to any distant Keep. IIRC it was right outside Winterfell, at a place traditional for that sort of thing.

I kind of prefer the hanging version, but whatever. You guys are over-analyzing.

I was kind of hoping somewhere somewhen we'd get a Dolorous Edd short story where the wightified Slynt on the end of the rope wakes up with blue eyes and struggles to climb up it to attack. Edd, taking a turn at the top of the Wall that night, would amuse himself throwing lamp oil down on Slynt and trying to light it.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

If I remember correctly originally Slynt was hung from the top of the wall by 100 ft. of Rope. Someone mentioned after the reading at Technicon that would rip off Slynt's head. As such the change makes sense.

[Jughead of the Round]

I like both endings for different reasons.

1) The hanging: I like that Jon shows authority and his men carry out the execution for him. This shows that the men of Night's Watch are willing to follow his orders no matter what. It is also more contemptuous of Slynt than a beheading. In ASOS, Slynt even tells Jon that they killed Eddard Stark by the sword because he was noble-born, but for Jon they will simply hang him. According to this reasoning, Jon seems to be according Slynt some respect, which I don't think Jon has for Slynt. By Jon hanging Slynt, he is showing Slynt that his 'lordship' is meaningless. I don't know how the chapter read, but I love the line: "Take him to the Wall...(dramatic pause) and hang him."

2) The beheading: I like that Jon shows his men he is their leader by committing the job himself. He is willing to do the most difficult work himself and not push it off on his men, which I'm sure is respected by the Night's Watch. He is also still able to show his authority by having his men grab Slynt and hold him down, so that aspect isn't necessarily lost. Secondly, this scene is a perfect retribution for Eddard Stark's execution; it's funny how Jon wanted to leave the Wall in AGOT to fight those who killed Eddard; he didn't realize that 'fate' would eventually bring those same individuals to him on the Wall. Thirdly, it shows Jon following in Eddard and Robb's footsteps by carrying out executions himself; he is 'of the North.'

I recall GRRM saying that Jon would be portrayed more as gray character in ADWD; I wonder how this will continue to be developed.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Previous scene was better than new one. Beheading sound more brutal than hanging, boots are bit off, Stannis's nodds never seems right, like :Jon isn't sure what to do and playing daddy approval with Stannis.

[Lord Varys]

Stannis' nod was in in the hanging version, too. And I really don't find that bad - it shows Stannis' respect for Jon, which essentially is a good thing. I actually like the possibility that a darker Jon and Stannis could bond on a certain level. They do fight against a common enemy, and although Stannis tells us all the time that Ned Stark was not his friend, I'd appreciate it if Jon and Stannis would become friends of sorts.

And even if none of this is going to happen, the nod is a sign of Stannis' approval for the execution. He despised Slynt, too, and would have him executed him himself had he not been a member of the NW.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Stannis' nod was in in the hanging version, too. And I really don't find that bad - it shows Stannis' respect for Jon, which essentially is a good thing. I actually like the possibility that a darker Jon and Stannis could bond on a certain level. They do fight against a common enemy, and although Stannis tells us all the time that Ned Stark was not his friend, I'd appreciate it if Jon and Stannis would become friends of sorts.

And even if none of this is going to happen, the nod is a sign of Stannis' approval for the execution. He despised Slynt, too, and would have him executed him himself had he not been a member of the NW.

Jon Snow, bastard son of Ned Stark (King's Hand and supposed traitor), is friend to Stannis Baratheon, brother of Robert (king of Westeros, supposedly murder by Ned Stark) pretender to Iron Throne. It sound good. :cool:

[LugaJetboyGirl]

Yeah, as noted, it was the beheading that I was talking about as the change. I personally liked the hanging better. It was much more viseral and shocking and dramatic. But that's just me.

I also have a pet theory that since Jon's first chapter features him beheading someone, he will be beheaded too. In GoT Ned gets Gared and he dies in the same way. Robb has to behead someone and he gets decapitated.

Now Jon Snow....NOOOOOooooooooooooo! Bring back the hanging! The Hanging, George, the Hanging!

Otherwise, I was much more moved by the chapter this time than the last few times I heard it. Perhaps that's because this time I imagined seeing it as the Show, and imagined Kit Harrington and the other actors doing it as I listened to the reading. I liked the emphasis that the chapter puts on Maester Aemon and Jon's relationship - he seems to be the only one that Jon can get advice from, since Jon has to 'kill the boy' with everybody else. I think that will be a very compelling story to follow. I got a little secretly weepy inside, actually.

[Lady Winter Rose]

I also have a pet theory that since Jon's first chapter features him beheading someone, ...

This isn't first Jon chapter. First one is where Mel tells Jon that he has smiling enemies. The one on GRRM website.

...he will be beheaded too. In GoT Ned gets Gared and he dies in the same way. Robb has to behead someone and he gets decapitated.

This could work, anyway Mel tells him something that was creepy similar to death and Other.

[Hound Reborn]

*Fist Pump* Yess!!! Janos Slynt outlived his welcome in the series! He should have died when he betrayed Ned! It would have been more satisfying If Jon knew Slynt was pretty much behind Ned's downfall which led to his death.. I'd have liked to see the Rabid Wolf in Jon unleashed into Slynt's face!!

[Grip]

Hmm I guess it was to be expected that Slynt would get his due eventually though I must say that I kinda liked him, pompous upjumped butcher son that he is..I also like Thorne hovewer and it will be interesting to see how he interacts with Jon, unlike Slynt Thorne is a loyal man of the NW though he doesnt like Jon. I hope it more or less stays that way, just because they dont like each other doesnt mean one is evil and the other good..

[lokisnow]

a much more cinematic ending the the hanging. In this one, Jon is an active player in the death/execution, in the other one, it's a passive onscreen task done by someone else. This is more concise and would play better on camera.

We know GRRM wrote his episode sometime this year, I wonder if getting in the screenwriting groove for a few weeks/month got the creativity gears rolling at different speeds, directions than they had been before, and bumped him out of the writing and rewriting rut around the Knot and Gap.

[lokisnow]

a much more cinematic ending than the hanging. In this one, Jon is an active player in the death/execution, in the other one, it's a passive offscreen task done by someone else. This is more concise and would play better on camera, because you see the immediate direct impact on Jon. In a novel, it's more subtle difference, and internal thoughts can texture either version however the author likes, but on screen, a scene like this execution plays far stronger than 'being sent offscreen to die'.

We know GRRM wrote his episode sometime this year, I wonder if getting in the screenwriting groove for a few weeks/month got the creativity gears rolling at different speeds, directions than they had been before, and bumped him out of the writing and rewriting rut around the Knot and Gap.

Edited November 18, 2010 by lockesnow

[Lundy]

I recall GRRM saying that Jon would be portrayed more as gray character in ADWD; I wonder how this will continue to be developed.

I'm really curious about this as well. :idea: I'm interested in hearing anyone's theories on how Snow will go gray.

I don't think executing Slynt is enough to qualify. Does anyone have any theories or have you heard any hints???

:insert begging for response emoticon here:

[Dreadwolf]

I'm really curious about this as well. :idea: I'm interested in hearing anyone's theories on how Snow will go gray.

I don't think executing Slynt is enough to qualify. Does anyone have any theories or have you heard any hints???

:insert begging for response emoticon here:

Well, I have no idea about ADWD and subsequeant Jon*s development, but swapping the babies that has already been done with Jon*s knowledge, consent and most probably at his Own incentive in AFFC was IMHO something that easily can be qulified as grey. Of course if (or when) Mel decideds to burn the baby to produce a dragon (presuming he is of king*s/Mance blood) Jon (if stays alive at that point) might reveal the truth and save the baby however causing that to any mother (Gille) and risking the absolutely innocent boy*s life for what ever the reason may be is in my understanding a good match for growing grey.

Otherwise (and in form of general rant) once a man decides that (would be noble) aims justify the ends you may count him as grey characther if not even black one.

[Schlafmohn]

I'm really curious about this as well. :idea: I'm interested in hearing anyone's theories on how Snow will go gray.

I don't think executing Slynt is enough to qualify. Does anyone have any theories or have you heard any hints???

:insert begging for response emoticon here:

We'll hear about Jon's smiling enemies. Jon will surly wonder who that is. I would not be surprised if he would turn out a little bit paranoid like the mad king. (would also be a nice foreshadowing, if R+L=J is right) Resulting in unfortunate choices and confusion about what is right and what is wrong. And what means are acceptable to reach your goal. This would be a good continuation of the conversation he had with master Aemon:

The old man seemed to sense his doubts. “Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?”

Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name.“He would do whatever was right,” he said . . . ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. “No matter what.

I would love to read about Jon's "heart struggling with itself" (quote GRRM), his effort to live up to his role as lord commander while people continue telling him that he knows nothing. ;) Resulting in a downward spiral similar to what Jaime had to live through. And the conclusion to what he chooses in the end (or wether there IS a right decision at all) will be near the end of the series. :)

Ok, that is my theory about Jon's greyness...I would also love to hear what others think/other theories.

[Lady Winter Rose]

The old man seemed to sense his doubts. “Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?”

Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name.“He would do whatever was right,” he said . . . ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. “No matter what.

And he choice. He choice to tell people of KL that he is traitor to protect Sansa and Arya.

[Lundy]

I would love to read about Jon's "heart struggling with itself" (quote GRRM)...{ }...I would also love to hear what others think/other theories.

Thanks for sharing your theory Schlafmohn. :cheers:

I hadn't heard that GRRM quote before about Jon's heart struggling with itself. Gets me all excited about ADwD again!

Maybe it's just me, but I was really excited when Jon had to take up with the wildlings. I formulated all kinds of theories for his future. Not once did I come up with he'd become the next Lord Commander of the Night's Watch! I was taken completely by surprise.

I hope to be taken by surprise again for Jon's next chapter. Fer instance, who could think he'd ever leave the wall??? That'd be pretty grey. :fencing:

'course that's likely just wishful thinking on my part. What if he was forced (or felt he was forced) into it?

It's been so long now since I read Storm of Swords that I've forgotten what theories I came up with back then for Jon. I'll have to re-read. :blushing: :read:

Edited November 26, 2010 by Lundy

[Lundy]

Regarding Jon going gray... I’ve gone back through this thread so as not to ask y’all to repeat what’s already been said. So here’s a summary of what I found interesting.

His anger about what's happened to his family really comes out in this chapter.

Making Gilly feel the fire gave me goose bumps.

[Jon] promised to kill a child. That was downright cold blooded.

I'd forgotten those parts - grayish however he had damn good reasons. Oh yea, *head smack* that defines gray. ;)

As others have said beheading would probably have made it seem to the others like Jon did it just for his own satisfaction.

And now that it *is* a beheading... will some indeed see it that way? :box:

Other than the Night King is anyone aware of the mention of a Lord Commander being deposed by the Night's Watch? I actually fear Jon's friends could become part of Thorne's clique because of their resentment at being pushed aside.

Hmmm... anyone? I wonder about this ^^^ as well.

I thought of another comparison between Jon and another Character. His threat to Gilly's child is rather reminiscent of Jaime's threat to kill Edmure Tully's child if he didn't surrender Riverrun. Jaime being on a road of attempted redemption while Jon is dealing with the hard realities of the impending fight against the Others makes the comparison interesting. I wonder if they will continue to parallel?

I've previously suggested that there are more parallels between Jaime and Jon, starting in ASoS. Consider Jaime's dilemma regarding his oaths and his duties during the Kingslaying, and his apparent resolution that ultimately the oaths are there to serve the realm and that they should always be examined in that light. Compare to Halfhand teaching Jon that his oaths are also there to bind him to the service of the realm, and that if that means violating some of those oaths, so be it.

Nice ones ^^^ I hadn't considered those parallels before. Kewl.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Lundy

[Lundy]

Different subject – from page 10 of this thread regarding AFFC;

And good call: the Pate we meet at the beginning is not the Pate we meet at the end.

How do you know this? What did I miss in my reading?

I took him as the same Pate who is now a pawn of the alchemist. Made me wonder if it is foreboding for Sam and just what is the alchemist's agenda.

[Jaqen Fett]

Different subject – from page 10 of this thread regarding AFFC;

How do you know this? What did I miss in my reading?

I took him as the same Pate who is now a pawn of the alchemist. Made me wonder if it is foreboding for Sam and just what is the alchemist's agenda.

The Alchemist is Jaqen and now Jaqen is Pate. Either the FM wanted access to the entire Citadel (maybe something to do w/ relics?) or Jaqen is there to assassinate someone. I find the agenda of the FM one of the most interesting unknowns of the entire series

Edited November 26, 2010 by Jaqen Fett