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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 3 but actually Jon 1

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[quote name='Ibsen's Crawfish' post='1295558' date='Mar 31 2008, 18.03']But there was direct communication between Janos and the Lannister, Tywin says something like "Our man Janos Slynt writes that... [whatever]" at some point during AFfC. At the very least his no longer writing should alarm them. Or else they really do not care.[/quote]

Who's "them" though?

Tywin's dead and buried.

Tyrion's across the sea.

Kevan bailed.

Cersei's locked up.

Jaime's on campaign and apparently in no hurry to return.

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[quote name='Ibsen's Crawfish' post='1295558' date='Mar 31 2008, 21.03']But there was direct communication between Janos and the Lannister, Tywin says something like "Our man Janos Slynt writes that... [whatever]" at some point during AFfC. At the very least his no longer writing should alarm them. Or else they really do not care.[/quote]

Does he? Could you provide a cite? In any case, I think that it's likely that with the death of Tywin and the accompanying disappareance of Varys, things like the sudden end to Slynt's no-doubt-scintillating correspondence would get lost in the shuffle. Either of them would have noticed; Cersei, on the other hand, probably wasn't following the intelligence reports that closely.

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Never mind; I found it. In the "smallest council" chapter, Pycelle says, "If Lord Janos can be believed, [Stannis] is trying to make common cause with the wildlings." That's p. 351 in the US pb of AFFC. I still think the most likely interpretation is that Qyburn and Cersei didn't pay particular attention to Slynt or his fate. Pycelle might have thought about it from time to time, but he had a lot on his plate himself and he wouldn't have known which reports were coming and out. Edited by The Fat Man

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Getting back to the question of what Alliser Thorne will do now, I think it's clear that Slynt, although Thorne's friend, made a hugely idiotic decision by openly scoffing and disobeying Jon - I don't think Thorne does that anymore. So Slynt really had it coming and Thorne will probably use Jon's tough display of authority as a way to rally disgruntled black brothers behind himself in secret.

I wonder how many black brothers feel about Jon the way Slynt and Thorne do/did. Edited by Brienne of Tarth

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Thank you Mr Martin and thank you LugaJetBoyGirl.
What an amazing chapter! Jon has always been one of my favorite characters and it's great to see how he's maturing.
Honorable Ned's bastard son has to come to terms with his upbringing, his terrible loss and his present responsibilities as the LC, no wonder he's becoming a greyer person.

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[quote]Getting back to the question of what Alliser Thorne will do now, I think it's clear that Slynt, although Thorne's friend, made a hugely idiotic decision by openly scoffing and disobeying Jon - I don't think Thorne does that anymore. So Slynt really had it coming and Thorne will probably use Jon's tough display of authority as a way to rally disgruntled black brothers behind himself in secret.[/quote]

I think an awful lot is said about Thorne in the fact that he goes for the hilt of his sword, but after realising that Jon has Longclaw with him, thinks twice about the measure. It shows that Thorne has some kind of begrudged respect for Jon and I think that his latest show of command, the execution of Janos Slynt (I'm sorry there was too much pleasure taken in writing that), will bend Thorne more towards Jon. While they are never going to become best friends I think that they will end up working together now that Thorne can see that Jon is capable of command.

What I think may be more significant is the fact that Pyp was present when Jon confronted Thorne, we have seen in Sam I (AFfC) that Pyp is disgruntled with Lord Snow and I think this is going to push him even further. I have a theory that Pyp will teach Jon that he needs to retain some kind of humanity as the book progresses.

So we are all agreed that this is going to be Jon II, does anyone think that there will be another chapter between this and the next Jon chapter that we have spoilers for? I just feel that we have more to learn from Mance Rayder before he is killed off... maybe the chapter between Jon II and Jon III will be Melisandre I, where we will get a scene between the Red Woman and Mance, I think I'd kill for that.

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[color="#FF8C00"][b]This comes from Young Stormlord[/b], [/color]on the chronicles network forum, it explains why Jon used that way of execution.

He hanged Slynt by legs with a hundred foot long rope because of Slynt's words in Asos (just before Jon goes to parley wit Mance)
“Still,” Slynt said, “I will not have it said that Janos Slynt hanged a man unjustly. I will not. I have decided to give you one last chance to prove you are as loyal as you claim, Lord Snow. One last chance to do your duty, yes!” He stood. “Mance Rayder wants to parley with us. He knows he has no chance now that Janos Slynt has come, so he wants to talk, this King-beyond-the-Wall. But the man is craven, and will not come to us. No doubt he knows I’d hang him. Hang him by his feet from the top of the Wall, on a rope two hundred feet long! But he will not come. He asks that we send an envoy to him.”

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Jughead,

[quote name='Jughead of the Round' post='1295646' date='Mar 31 2008, 23.38']I am without speech at the greatness of this chapter.

LugaJetBoyGirl:

Any word on which fort Giant went to?

Any mention of Dolorous Edd in this chapter? Or Melisandre? Pyp, Grenn? Ghost?[/quote]

GRRM told us the name of Giant's fort in the reading but I can't remember it's name. I checked the map from ASOS and none of them jumped out at me. I would imagine it's one of the forts between Eastwatch and Castle Black as Greymark is between The Shadow Tower and The Night Fort. Jon was very concerned about preventing climbers from getting across the wall and allowing a flood of wildings into the North. He goes so far as to think to himself, "He would not be remembered as Jon Snow the Sleepy."

Kiwibird,

That makes the moment Slynt's neck goes ** crack ** all the more meaningful.

Other than the Night King is anyone aware of the mention of a Lord Commander being deposed by the Night's Watch. I actually fear Jon's friends could become part of Thorne's clic because of their resentment at being pushed aside. Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison

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Melisandre didn't appear at all that I can recall.

Jon mentions that one night, Ghost sleeps at the foot of his bed and that night he doesn't dream that he's a wolf. He does have a nightmare in which he cuts off the heads of Gilly's and Mance's babies and sews the heads onto the other's body. He wakes up to find Dolorous Edd at his bedside, come to wake him when Gilly, Sam and Aemon are leaving.

Dolorous Edd is also one of the men who drags Slynt from the hall.

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[quote name='Jughead of the Round' post='1295646' date='Mar 31 2008, 23.38']I am without speech at the greatness of this chapter.

LugaJetBoyGirl:

Any word on which fort Giant went to?

Any mention of Dolorous Edd in this chapter? Or Melisandre? Pyp, Grenn? Ghost?[/quote]

Pyp and Grenn are in the hall when Jon confronts Janos. As Eponine said, Ghost sleeps at the foot of Jon's bed. We also see him chewing on a bone, I think. That's pretty much it. And like Ser Scott, I can't remember which fort Giant goes to. Pod might remember, but I don't think he is back in computer land yet. Edited by LugaJetBoyGirl

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Thanks for the extra details. :)

Is there any mention of the wildlings, other than Mance's baby? This chapter seems to focus primarily on Jon's hatred of the Lannisters (as well as their pawns) and his plans for the Watch.

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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='KiwiBird' post='1295830' date='Apr 1 2008, 08.41'][color="#FF8C00"][b]This comes from Young Stormlord[/b], [/color]on the chronicles network forum, it explains why Jon used that way of execution.

He hanged Slynt by legs with a hundred foot long rope because of Slynt's words in Asos (just before Jon goes to parley wit Mance)
“Still,” Slynt said, “I will not have it said that Janos Slynt hanged a man unjustly. I will not. I have decided to give you one last chance to prove you are as loyal as you claim, Lord Snow. One last chance to do your duty, yes!” He stood. “Mance Rayder wants to parley with us. He knows he has no chance now that Janos Slynt has come, so he wants to talk, this King-beyond-the-Wall. But the man is craven, and will not come to us. No doubt he knows I’d hang him. Hang him by his feet from the top of the Wall, on a rope two hundred feet long! But he will not come. He asks that we send an envoy to him.”[/quote]
I don't understand this. Was Slynt hanged by the legs or by the neck? Didn't they hear his neck snap even from down at the base of the Wall?

I like how Stannis just gives Jon an approving nod after it's done. He would have liked to have seen someone do that ages ago, but he respected the NW's immunity and independence (at least for that one particular case), so he didn't do it himself.

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It appears that Jon has command of some of Stannis's men if he is able to send them out to the forts as well.

I was wondering what the total number of NW is left there. They had just under a thousand before that massacre at the fist of first me. So they have to be between 700 and 800 now right?

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OtL,

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1297100' date='Apr 1 2008, 23.17']I don't understand this. Was Slynt hanged by the legs or by the neck? Didn't they hear his neck snap even from down at the base of the Wall?[/quote]

I'm 90% certian Slynt was hung by the neck.

[quote]I like how Stannis just gives Jon an approving nod after it's done. He would have liked to have seen someone do that ages ago, but he respected the NW's immunity and independence (at least for that one particular case), so he didn't do it himself.[/quote]

It was rather cool. Stannis doesn't broke, unjustified, open defiance.

Jughead,

[quote]Is there any mention of the wildlings[/quote]

Yes. The reason Jon wants to garrison more of the forts is he worries about Wildling climbers flooding into the North without Mance to control them. He thinks, thirty is too few, but it is better than no watch at all.

Shev,

[quote]So they have to be between 700 and 800 now right?[/quote]

I think that's right, well, minus one. :devil: Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison

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I would like to post this clip from the current sample chapter to bolster my argument that Slynt knowing of Tywin's death while it [i]appears[/i] Jon was unaware could be significant:

[quote]This is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me. Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard pressed, with enemies on every side. You have so many enemies. Shall I tell you their names?"
"I know their names."
"Do not be so certain." The ruby at Melisandre's throat gleamed redly. "It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold."[/quote]

Melisandre is warning Jon of unseen enemies. Now she could simply be attempting to win him to her cause, or she could be giving him a real warning. If it's a real warning Jon should worry about how Slynt was getting important news before the Lord Commander.

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[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1297326' date='Apr 2 2008, 11.56']I would like to post this clip from the current sample chapter to bolster my argument that Slynt knowing of Tywin's death while it [i]appears[/i] Jon was unaware could be significant:



Melisandre is warning Jon of unseen enemies. Now she could simply be attempting to win him to her cause, or she could be giving him a real warning. If it's a real warning Jon should worry about how Slynt was getting important news before the Lord Commander.[/quote]

information must come via Ravens right? Neither Clydas, nor Samwell nor Aemon seem the sort to inform Janos Slynt before Jon. I think this might just be something GRRM will catch in editing..

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[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1295418' date='Mar 31 2008, 18.01']Ever since I read this last night, I've been wondering: what on earth does Alliser Thorne do now? Jon has raised the stakes, definitely, and set things up so that Alliser can't officially complain (what with Slynt refusing an order in full view of dozens of brothers and all); but at the same time Alliser can't be any kind of schemer if he allows Jon to simply kill his patron right in front of him with no response. He has to make some kind of move in retaliation, but what?[/quote]

I've been wondering about that as well. At first I thought Jon may issue the same command he gave Slynt to Thorne. Sending Thorne away would be tempting, but after some thought I realized that Jon can't do that now. Thorne knows he's in mortal danger and would react accordingly if given time to build his own garrison.

I think Thorne will seek out those who are known to dislike Jon, like Rattleshirt and discontented brothers. I think Sweet Donnel Hill is back among the watch, and he was a conspiritor against Mormont and seems to smile alot....

In Jon's shoes I would keep Thorne really close and really busy. (Keep your friends at your back and your enemies where you can see them).

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