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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 3 but actually Jon 1

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grinachu,

[quote name='grinachu' post='1297335' date='Apr 2 2008, 07.12']information must come via Ravens right? Neither Clydas, nor Samwell nor Aemon seem the sort to inform Janos Slynt before Jon. I think this might just be something GRRM will catch in editing..[/quote]

Samwell and Aemon had left the day before Slynt is hung. It would have to be Clydas if he's in charge of the Ravens. Then again, as others have pointed out, there doesn't appear to be any hard and fast rule that the LC gets news first.

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Reviewing what's been said so far, the main thing I can tell is that it's not actually clear that Jon isn't aware that Tywin is dead at the same time, or before, Janos Slynt is.

Wouldn't it all be rather moot if Jon did know? I think if it was supposed to matter, there would have been some hint that Jon was indeed surprised by the news, thereby proving Slynt had it before Jon.

Lugarilla said that Slynt shouts something about Jon not having the guts to make this move if Tywin were still alive. Doesn't this imply that Slynt believes Jon is acting with the knowledge that Tywin is dead?

I suppose Jon and Slynt both knowing Tywin is dead at the end of that chapter doesn't rule out that someone told Slynt before Jon learned the news, but there doesn't actually seem to be anything to go on. Edited by Ran

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Ran,

Well reasoned. I think we lack information on this question and it could simply be a continuty snafu or GRRM may not have felt Jon, given everything else that was going on, would have the time or inclination to comment on Tywin's death. I still think it is suspicious.

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[quote name='Nadie' post='1294746' date='Mar 31 2008, 11.00']Ah, Ned would have done the same thing. Say what you will about him, but he was dead serious about the Wall. The very first chapter we see him in he beheads someone![/quote]

Not just the wall, but pretty much any serious laws of the kind. His opinion of Jorah, for example, he made it rather clear he was going to behead him, and would still do so if he fell in his hands again.

So, yes, what Jon did in this chapter is exactly what Eddard would have done... but he would not have had to, because no one would have dared defy him like Janos did. And that's the whole point Aemon is trying to make I believe.

Eddard had already proven he was more than willing to enforce his authority, as I am sure the Old Bear had as well. Jon, however, still hadn't proven to his men that he was capable of making the hard decisions, and he remains a child in the eyes of most (including Janos, obviously). By justly enforcing his authority, by hanging one who disobeyed and defied the direct order of the duly appointed Lord Commander, Jon proved he was ready and able for command.

Or some such. :)

Itkovian

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My take on this is that Tywin Lannister (dead, alive, juggling lemon pies, whatever) didn't play into Jon's decision to deal with Slynt in any way. Thus, Jon doesn't need to be shown to consider him at all. In fact, I think the way things play out shows that Slynt was under the mistaken impression that being affiliated with Tywin afforded him some sort of protection at the Wall when it clearly did not. I believe Jon knows he needs to quickly and truly make the Wall his and this was a big step in doing so. Just my $.02 worth :)

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[quote name='Itkovian' post='1297741' date='Apr 2 2008, 13.39']Not just the wall, but pretty much any serious laws of the kind. His opinion of Jorah, for example, he made it rather clear he was going to behead him, and would still do so if he fell in his hands again.

So, yes, what Jon did in this chapter is exactly what Eddard would have done... but he would not have had to, because no one would have dared defy him like Janos did. And that's the whole point Aemon is trying to make I believe.

Eddard had already proven he was more than willing to enforce his authority, as I am sure the Old Bear had as well. Jon, however, still hadn't proven to his men that he was capable of making the hard decisions, and he remains a child in the eyes of most (including Janos, obviously). By justly enforcing his authority, by hanging one who disobeyed and defied the direct order of the duly appointed Lord Commander, Jon proved he was ready and able for command.

Or some such. :)

Itkovian[/quote]

I really wish that we knew something about how the law is enforced at the Wall. Have we ever learned how they deal with insubordination?

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LJBG,

[quote]I really wish that we knew something about how the law is enforced at the Wall. Have we ever learned how they deal with insubordination?[/quote]

As with most Feudal punishments I think it's essentially at the LC's discretion. That being the case I think we just learned how the current LC deals with insubordination. Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison

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[quote name='LugaJetBoyGirl' post='1297836' date='Apr 2 2008, 14.26']I really wish that we knew something about how the law is enforced at the Wall. Have we ever learned how they deal with insubordination?[/quote]

Good question. It's entirely likely that hanging is the proper thing to do, but there's no way to know. Nevertheless, it seems clear that the Lord Commander's word is law, given that Jon proves his authority by hanging one who defied him.

They take the oath seriously, that's for sure. :)

Itkovian

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[quote name='Loras' post='1295716' date='Apr 1 2008, 03.48']What I think may be more significant is the fact that Pyp was present when Jon confronted Thorne, we have seen in Sam I (AFfC) that Pyp is disgruntled with Lord Snow and I think this is going to push him even further. I have a theory that Pyp will teach Jon that he needs to retain some kind of humanity as the book progresses.[/quote]

I'm more inclined to think Pyp (and Grenn) will pose a serious threat to Jon later on because of this I see them as the "smiling friends" Mel was warning him about. Since I doubt they've displayed any ill will towards him personally but when he's not around their having breakfast with Janos.

The way i see it hanging Janos is a statement to the other black brothers if anyone wants to challenge Jon's authority there's a reminder hanging from the wall for all to see, while after his beheading they'd have gotten rid of the body and some ppl might forget. It's interesting that Jon throws Janos' own words back at him "giving him one last chance" where Jon wisely took his chance Janos did not.

Thorne I really don't think is the evil guy Jon makes him out to be he's an ass and hangs out with scum but I don't see him as the type to really betray people. Even when he saw Janos getting taken he seems to be the only one with thoughts of standing by Janos, then he cowers because he must have reasoned Jon is a better sword or that no one else was standing with him against Jon's 7. I expect him to continue to 'tow the line' calling Jon boy and muttering how he shouldnt be LC but doing as Jon tells him.

And about Jon ordering arond King's Men didn't Jon get permission from Stannis back when they were discussing the empt castles in Jon 1.

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[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1294224' date='Mar 30 2008, 23.27']According to the Davos spoiler chapter, Davos was sent to White Harbor to treat with the Manderlys. (This is indeed where he ends up too, if Manderly can be believed.)[/quote]

We don't need to question Manderly Davos II (located in the same thread) tells us he arrives safely in White Harbour. Edited by cybroleach

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[quote name='LugaJetBoyGirl' post='1294125' date='Mar 30 2008, 21.31']Oh, and for the Hound fans, GRRM pretty much said that he was alive, saying 'it will be very interesting to finish his story, since he is such a grey character.'[/quote]
ThankyouthankyouthankyouTHANKYOU! Oh my God, that is the [i]best[/i] news I've heard all day. All week, even. I knew GRRM wouldn't just leave us hanging. Bless that man. Maybe we'll get that Sandor POV after all. *fingers crossed*

Oh, and fabulous chapter too. It's all about those hard choices, isn't it? If Jon doesn't have the makings of a great leader, I don't know who does.

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[quote name='Wisp' post='1300221' date='Apr 3 2008, 21.16']ThankyouthankyouthankyouTHANKYOU! Oh my God, that is the [i]best[/i] news I've heard all day. All week, even. I knew GRRM wouldn't just leave us hanging. Bless that man. Maybe we'll get that Sandor POV after all. *fingers crossed*

Oh, and fabulous chapter too. It's all about those hard choices, isn't it? If Jon doesn't have the makings of a great leader, I don't know who does.[/quote]

I've got a slew of questions regarding Sandor "concluding storyline" in the next book:

1.) Where will Sandor finish his story? King's Landing? The Eyrie?
2.) If he finishes it in King's Landing, will he finally have his trial by combat with Gregor? GRRM will not only conclude Sandor, he'll also conclude Cersei as well.
3.) Is there a likely chance he'll die to conclude his story?
4.) Does this also mean Sansa will never hook up with Sandor since his story concludes in Kings Landing?

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Awesome chapter! As non-Jon fan, I have to say GRRM just made Jon more interesting as a character tome...

Regarding hanging vs. beheading, methinks the key point is that Personal Beheadings is distinctively a Stark thing. Jon is acting here not as a Stark, but on his authority as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

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I don't think it really matters that much, but wasn't it that hanging was seen as a common death? I know in medieval England, nobles saw beheading as a 'nobler' form of execution. Slynt is lowborn, so he received the lowborn form of execution.

ETA; Actually scratch that idea. i just remembered Ned executed Gared by beheading him, and Gared was definitely lowborn. Edited by Brady

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I think Jon choose hanging for three reasons. First, the irony of Slynt's threat and his end. Second, to firmly establish his authority. Third, to show he's not a Stark and he will get his hands dirty to do what needs to be done.

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No matter what his reason was, he should have burned the bastard. Other-wise, the hanged Janos will soon crawl up the Wall again...

Great chapter, I look forward to read the real deal. Thanks for this spoiler LYBG, how can you be so sure that Jon's dream wasn't prophetic, all dreams are prophetic, valar dreamaris, it is known :) Edited by Roi Woodt

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[quote name='Crimsonking' post='1300249' date='Apr 3 2008, 22.50']I've got a slew of questions regarding Sandor "concluding storyline" in the next book:[/quote]

[i]'it will be very interesting to finish his story, since he is such a grey character'[/i]

i don't get the impression at all that he means his story is about to end. just commenting on his characters story arch.

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[quote name='siyrean' post='1300914' date='Apr 4 2008, 13.11'][i]'it will be very interesting to finish his story, since he is such a grey character'[/i]

i don't get the impression at all that he means his story is about to end. just commenting on his characters story arch.[/quote]

Hmmm. so the "concluding storyline" can go two different ways? 1.) His story arc, or 2.) his entire story in ASOIAF. I never thought of it that way. Well, whichever way it goes, I think his most likely destination is King's Landing. We all know how that might turn out..... :cool: Edited by Crimsonking

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Yay! This chapter summary is the best thing I've heard in a while! :-) -Definitely- one of the most satisfying deaths in the series, even without reading GRRM's actual words. I really thought Janos Slynt would go on breathing and being annoying for years and years to come. I'm very excited to see where's Jon's storyline goes from here.

[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1300561' date='Apr 4 2008, 03.56']No matter what his reason was, he should have burned the bastard. Other-wise, the hanged Janos will soon crawl up the Wall again...

Great chapter, I look forward to read the real deal. Thanks for this spoiler LYBG, how can you be so sure that Jon's dream wasn't prophetic, all dreams are prophetic, valar dreamaris, it is known :)[/quote]

Rofl! All the dreams are definitely meaningful one way or the other, whether prophetic or not.

In all seriousness though, I wonder if it's possible for wights to climb the Wall, even with the assistance of a rope. They seem.... clumsy. ::shudder::

I'm eager to see The Hound again too. I hope he's in ADwD even though he was already (sorf of) in AFfC. Hmm... I don't see him going to King's Landing, though, even if UnGregor is there. After all, he abandoned his duty there; I'm sure he knows it will mean his head if he returns.

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Hey all - I found out last night that George is going to read this chapter again this afternoon at OddCon. I'm going to ask him about the whole Did Jon know that Tywin was dead question, if I get the chance.... though isn't the conversation we see between Sam and Jon in aFFC the one about the "paper shield" being sent to Tywin? Or was there another Jon and Sam conversation that I'm forgetting? Which conversation do we see in this chapter? George said something in another panel last night about "the dialog being exactly the same" (which is how I know this is the chapter he intends to read, on top of the fact that he posted on his Not-A-Blog that he was basically home for one night and then headed up here to Madison - not a lot of prep time there to get a new chapter together for reading)

Sorry, I'm being unusally tired and dense this morning. And incomprehensible. Edited by Odie

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