The Darkness that Comes Before

[Besselfunction]

I loved the Prologue. I read it on a clear morning in October while I was on a train that went through endless woods. Perhaps it was due to the fitting countryside surrounding me, perhaps due to the girl that awaited me at the end of said trainride, but of the whole trilogy, I remember this part best. Back then, I was immediately hooked. Looking back at it, I think these first twenty pages have a certain poetic beauty.
I got a bit annoyed with TDTCB when Achamian showed up. The joy came back with Cnaiur's POV, though. The last third (the interaction between Khellus and Cnaiur) was great as well, probably my favourite part.

[gladius]

PoN is the best fantasy series that I've ever read and i love the third book (i reread it every 3,4 months :wideeyed: )

the characters i like the most are Cnaiur, Mekeritrig/Cet'ingra and Akka after he is told the truth ....maybe even Aurang :leaving:

preaching? no (and i can't stand preaching)

as always - YMMV

[Crazydog7]

The Darkness that Comes Before long boring and dull though admitidly not as dull as anything by Tad Williams.

Good prose good characters (although why does a middle east themed realm with secret societies always get tapped to be the "land of mystery"? its annoying) It kept hinting at all these great revelations that were just around the corner but somehow the narrative never arrived there. About the only part I liked WAS the prologue.

I wanted to like this book but I threw it aside after 200 pages or so and it takes ALOT of nonsense to get a book that will do that for me.

[Caligula_K]

[quote name='Crazydog7' post='1318515' date='Apr 17 2008, 21.50']The Darkness that Comes Before long boring and dull though admitidly not as dull as anything by Tad Williams.

Good prose good characters (although why does a middle east themed realm with secret societies always get tapped to be the "land of mystery"? its annoying) It kept hinting at all these great revelations that were just around the corner but somehow the narrative never arrived there. About the only part I liked WAS the prologue.

I wanted to like this book but I threw it aside after 200 pages or so and it takes ALOT of nonsense to get a book that will do that for me.[/quote]

Complaining that a book never got to the great revelations within the first 200 pages of a trilogy within a seven book series is quite silly. I mean, did you give up on A Game of Thrones because the origins of the Others weren't explained within the first 200 pages (or the first 4,000, for that matter)?

Anyway, throw me in with those who love Bakker. Its nice to see someone who actually knows philosophy integrate it into a fantasy book, and do it in an extremely thought provoking way. I loved many of the characters, most notably Cnaiur, Akka and Kellhus (the best parts are still the scenes with Khellus and Cnaiur), and I really liked the way it was written; battle scenes alternately reminded me of the Iliad and the Bible. The PoN is probably my second favourite fantasy trilogy/series after ASoIaF.

[Shryke]

[quote name='gladius' post='1318372' date='Apr 17 2008, 13.53']PoN is the best fantasy series that I've ever read and i love the third book (i reread it every 3,4 months :wideeyed: )

the characters i like the most are Cnaiur, Mekeritrig/Cet'ingra and Akka after he is told the truth ....maybe even Aurang :leaving:

preaching? no (and i can't stand preaching)

as always - YMMV[/quote]

Akka at the end of TTT is awesome. I love the scene where Esmi finally figures out just how dangerous he actually is. The way Bakker writes sorcery in the book is better then anyone else imo.

[delete this account pls]

I'm not sure what it means, but then your mileage may vary.

[Caligula_K]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1318570' date='Apr 17 2008, 21.24']*Kartman voice*

"God fuckin' damnit!!!! Will someone please tell me what the fuck YMMV means!!!!!!!"

ETA: My best guess is "Your motives may vary." there is no way that is right. Please tell me![/quote]

"Your mileage may vary". As in, your results will vary.

Edit: Brady beat me to it, more amusingly.

[S John]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1318570' date='Apr 17 2008, 22.24']*Kartman voice*

"God fuckin' damnit!!!! Will someone please tell me what the fuck YMMV means!!!!!!!"

ETA: My best guess is "Your motives may vary." there is no way that is right. Please tell me![/quote]

Two people have already beat me to it, but I feel compelled to add that I'm thinking about starting a board petition to ban that particular acronym.

[Zparanoid]

Personally I loved PoN, I guess its hit or miss.

[kiko]

Because I'm a sucker, I am now i the middle of TTT.
(If there is another damn kingdom, they have to enter, there will be blood - but that's another topic)

If the series is really a vehicle for philosphy, it is the equivalent of someone trying to have as many miscarriages as possible and exhibiting the results. It definitely works, but it is not easy to look upon.

I like the alien aesthetics, though. I hope this mitigating factor will carry me through the book.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='kiko' post='1318919' date='Apr 18 2008, 13.38']I like the alien aesthetics, though.[/quote]
You mean the aesthetics of Eärwa, which are alien to you? Or you mean the aesthetics of Aurax and Aurang (who are aliens)?

[kiko]

Eärwa and it's civilisation of demi-humans

[Nerdanel]

I think the first book was slow, but the second was were things got really interesting. I really enjoyed the feeling of doom hanging over everything. (Not everyone is going to feel that. This is a series where your personal philosophy affects a lot how you see things.[*]) The third book is where I spoiled myself by debating Prince of Nothing on this board with people who had read it already in hardcover. I was largely right, or at least I still maintain that most of my interpretations are the correct ones, but being heavily spoiled really cut into my entertainment factor. I think I would have enjoyed the book a lot without it.

[*] Another such an example is the Sword of Truth. You may see the story as Good triumphing over Evil, or Evil triumphing over Strawman, although Goodkind intended only the former. Bakker tries to be more ambitious.

[Lord of Lannister]

my impression was that this series had so much potential, but Bakker ruined it with slow pacing and too much talking. The second book was OK, where the philosophy talk was used to progress him self in the ranks of the Holy War. But the third book was a real let-down. It closes almost nothing and leaves too many threads hanging for Bakker's next trilogy (apparantly with a 20 year gap - we all know how those end up :leaving:).

if he just used a litle less philosophy (only when it really supports the plot) and more action/drama (bitching about lost loves and how cruel the world is doesnt really count) then the series would have been almost as good as ASOIAF. now it barely exceeds Hobb's books :(.

[Lyanna Stark]

Nerdanel,

I think that is a very good point.

I guess it depends on people's expectations as well. If they think "The Warrior Prophet" means the main character will be a mean ninja fitghting machine who mows through ranks of the Evil Lord's minions and then fight's it out with Mr Evil and rescues a Damsel in Distress, they will be disappointed.

Amusingly, elements of the uber ninja warrior are still *there*, it's just....so much more, and different.


It's hard to determine whether some characters are good or evil. It is hard to figure out their motivations (if at all). Do you judge them on what they do? Or their reasoning behind it? If so, what are the motives for their reasoning? etc etc.

If you want to read a story about a guy pwning evil doers in action scene after action scene, these questions will most likely annoy you, since it ruins your expectations.

Kellhus is a bad hero model even for people who like anti-heroes. He's not troubled: on the contrary, most of the time he is not troubled at all! Akka as an anti-hero? Slightly better, but he's definitely not your standard dark, brooding anti-hero type. Again, failed expectations. :P

Actually, I think I will have to reread "The Thousandfold Thought" again since I sped through it at such an insane pace. I was absolutely thrilled with Akka's story line in TTT, and the whole Mog Pharau storyline really tickles my fancy. :)

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Lord of Lannister' post='1318961' date='Apr 18 2008, 14.31']Bakker's next trilogy (apparantly with a 20 year gap - we all know how those end up :leaving:).[/quote]
Actually, I just met Bakker 18 days ago at a convention. He said that the 20 year gap is gone, the time span will be covered by the upcoming [i]A Prance with Sranc[/i].

[kiko]

I think there is not even remotely on candidate for an (anti) hero. Someone mentioned "automatons". I think that hits the nail on the head. What I find slightly disturbing (I may be wrong, i'm not finished with TTT) is that I got the impression that at least Kellhus' character shows signs of development. But I don't notice anything more of that in book 3.


eta: there is an Akka storyline?

[Caligula_K]

[quote name='Ent Heureux' post='1318970' date='Apr 18 2008, 08.37']Actually, I just met Bakker 18 days ago at a convention. He said that the 20 year gap is gone, the time span will be covered by the upcoming [i]A Prance with Sranc[/i].[/quote]

Unfortunately, I spoke with him a few days ago and it appears a Prance With Sranc will be split into two books, divided geographically but taking place at the same time. That way, all characters will have a complete arc.

[Benjen Stark]

[quote name='Ent Heureux' post='1318970' date='Apr 18 2008, 06.37']Actually, I just met Bakker 18 days ago at a convention. He said that the 20 year gap is gone, the time span will be covered by the upcoming [i]A Prance with Sranc[/i].[/quote]
Is that the one which is entirely about the Sranc's efforts to deforest the north, while Mekeritrig plays with faces? Or are there 2 books now?

[quote name='kiko' post='1318973' date='Apr 18 2008, 06.40']I think there is not even remotely on candidate for an (anti) hero. Someone mentioned "automatons". I think that hits the nail on the head. What I find slightly disturbing (I may be wrong, i'm not finished with TTT) is that I got the impression that at least Kellhus' character shows signs of development. But I don't notice anything more of that in book 3.


eta: there is an Akka storyline?[/quote]
Don't try to figure out anything those people were talking about until you finish TTT. Your personal baggage and worldview will factor heavily into how you view Kellhus, and through him the people around him. Some people will consider him an out and out hero after TTT, others an out and out villain.

I was a little baffled by the ending until I heard about the 20 year gap. Then it makes a lot of sense.

[Lyanna Stark]

[quote name='kiko' post='1318973' date='Apr 18 2008, 13.40']I think there is not even remotely on candidate for an (anti) hero. Someone mentioned "automatons". I think that hits the nail on the head. What I find slightly disturbing (I may be wrong, i'm not finished with TTT) is that I got the impression that at least Kellhus' character shows signs of development. But I don't notice anything more of that in book 3.

eta: there is an Akka storyline?[/quote]

Kellhus....changes a lot from book 1 to book 3. :) He starts out as Dunyian, but what is he by the end of book three?

As for Akka, his is definitely a central storyline to TTT. He starts out more as narrator, but in TTT he emerges as maybe THE main character.

Benjen: What if you, like me, think "Ambiguous" as in "That choice is yet to be made (by Kellhus)"? :P