The Darkness that Comes Before

[Tears of Lys]

I absolutely think Achamian is the main character. Kellhus is there as eye candy :P

We don't really know what Kellhus is yet, and that's what makes it interesting. We have our theories, but that's it.

[kiko]

okay, read a couple of pages and I think I know why I can't get into it. I think it is a matter of trust.
I have the instinct to mistrust Kellhus, and everything, that Bakker says through him. I can't also take anything serious that comes from those characters, who trust him - because they are obviously gullible fools.
That might explain why I like the characters the more, the farther away they are from him. It gives them the opportunity to act at least halfway believable.

I would say that my beef with the author is his premise of Kellhus' superiour intellect. If he would have used some other plot device - a magic wand - the book would be easier to swallow. I might be able to actually listen to him, without (unconsciously) dismissing everything he is saying. I have definitely issues following philosophers first rule - people are stupid :P

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='kiko' post='1319236' date='Apr 18 2008, 17.53']okay, read a couple of pages and I think I know why I can't get into it. I think it is a matter of trust.
I have the instinct to mistrust Kellhus, and everything, that Bakker says through him.[/quote]
You're doing it right. You're like Cnaiür.

However, also note that not everything a liar tells you is [i]false[/i].

[kiko]

[quote name='Ent Heureux' post='1319244' date='Apr 18 2008, 17.58']You're doing it right. You're like Cnaiür.[/quote]

Yeah, but Cnaiür is mad, while I'm completely sane and hate every page, I read :dunce:

[quote]However, also note that not everything a liar tells you is [i]false[/i].[/quote]

As I said - it is a matter of trust. I have issues to trust proven liars.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='kiko' post='1319258' date='Apr 18 2008, 18.08']As I said - it is a matter of trust. I have issues to trust proven liars.[/quote]
The books don't ask you to.

[Benjen Stark]

[quote name='Lyanna Stark' post='1319190' date='Apr 18 2008, 10.26']Benjen: What if you, like me, think "Ambiguous" as in "That choice is yet to be made (by Kellhus)"? :P[/quote]
(some + some) <> all ;)

I was showing the extreme interpretations, both of which are pretty valid just from his motivations alone.


kiko,
If you are inclined to finish the book, I would finish it before trying to interpret any more. Some very noteworthy stuff happens as the story concludes that can change perspectives greatly. If you are not inclined to finish it, that's your choice. There is a scene where Kellhus can be judged with a good degree of confidence to not be lying near the end where a lot of stuff that might have been difficult to interpret becomes far more clear in terms of Kellhus's motivations. In fact, I'd say a lot of them are out and out stated.

[Procrastimancer]

I was hesitant to pick The Darkness That Comes Before up, but the recommendation came from a trusted source, so I did. It might have been because I was rather tired or because I was assaulted by the long unpronounceable names and slightly ponderous pacing, but I fell asleep twice in an attempt to get through the first fifteen pages. I put it down for a few days, but picked it up again and started over. I enjoyed it. I picked up the other two sometime later and loved those and eventually did a reread of the first and appreciated the prose much more as well as the book, which I loved so much more.

I'm still not one for saying they are the best books in fantasy I have ever read. I don't personally think that they are better than Martin or even Erikson (though I think that will likely bring me some heat), but they are up there, there is no denying it. I'll definitely not list it as my favorite, but I will recommend them each and every time someone asks what they should read next (depending on the person).

They are great books and beautiful to boot, so I would suggest sticking with them, but if you don't like it, you don't like it.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Ent Heureux' post='1319244' date='Apr 18 2008, 11.58']You're doing it right. You're like Cnaiür.

However, also note that not everything a liar tells you is [i]false[/i].[/quote]

The problem is, once Kellhus knows you don't trust a thing he says, he can manipulate you from the other end.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1319309' date='Apr 18 2008, 18.33']The problem is, once Kellhus knows you don't trust a thing he says, he can manipulate you from the other end.[/quote]
But you get to sleep with beautiful women first.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Ent Heureux' post='1319328' date='Apr 18 2008, 12.41']But you get to sleep with beautiful women first.[/quote]

Hey, I never said their wasn't an upside.

And frankly, if your gonna be someones bitch, at least your the most badass man on the planets bitch. That's what I learned from Duckman anyway.

[Nerdanel]

I personally think Kellhus is basically an Antichrist character. He may pose as an angel of light but he's not blinding me to his evil actions. It helps that I'm a passive observer in a different world he has no idea about, so he can't tune his arguments against me. ;)

By the way, I don't think the names in PoN are that difficult. It may be relevant that I'm not a native speaker of English, so I've had to have accustomed to a certain degree of strange phonetics just on that basis. I think the prominent example of bad naming in the series is Arithmeus: an insignificant fellow who by his all-too-appropriate Latin-style name pushed me out of the story and made me suspect that the humans on Eärwa were originally from our planet...

[Werthead]

I read the bulk of [i]The Darkness That Came Before[/i] (say pages 100 to about 620) in one day whilst I was ill-advisedly assigned to the cosmetics department at my old job. If I'd read it over a long, drawn-out period of time the slower pace of the book may have affected my judgement of it, but to read the entire book in virtually one sitting (it was a very slow day) proved a major boon in me speeding through the second and third books.

More thoughts [url="http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2007/04/wertzone-classics-prince-of-nothing.html"]here[/url]. For my money, [i]The Warrior-Prophet[/i] is the best book in the series.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1319667' date='Apr 18 2008, 15.38']I read the bulk of [i]The Darkness That Came Before[/i] (say pages 100 to about 620) in one day whilst I was ill-advisedly assigned to the cosmetics department at my old job. If I'd read it over a long, drawn-out period of time the slower pace of the book may have affected my judgement of it, but to read the entire book in virtually one sitting (it was a very slow day) proved a major boon in me speeding through the second and third books.

More thoughts [url="http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2007/04/wertzone-classics-prince-of-nothing.html"]here[/url]. For my money, [i]The Warrior-Prophet[/i] is the best book in the series.[/quote]

Oh damn, you people got fucked on the cover art.

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1319734' date='Apr 18 2008, 15.33']Oh damn, you people got fucked on the cover art.[/quote]

I just ordered the Penguin Trade Paperbacks of TWP and TTFT, and got those ugly editions! Agh!

Refund! Refund!

[diabloblanco18]

[quote name='Triskele' post='1319761' date='Apr 18 2008, 13.53']What do yours look like?

I never felt I got fucked since it's relatively low-key when compared to the shit on the shelves around it.[/quote]

[url="http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61N451R2TXL._SS500_.jpg"]TWP Cover[/url]

Yeah, the people who got the other covers got fucked.

(this includes me, at least with the first book)

[Shryke]

The Cover is what attracted me to the book. Nothing else looks like it. It's got this incredible "Ancient Scroll" look to it.

[beniowa]

Ditto that Shryke. Whoever designed the paperback covers should be taken out and shot.

[Ran]

I've finished the second book now, and I'm in the rather curious position of having had to get through it as quickly as possible without quite knowing why, because so many of the background events were, really, things I knew were going to happen as soon as I saw just how close he was following the First Crusade. It's not as if Kellhus is engrossing. Or, for that matter, Cnaiür.

Mostly it's because of Akka, I suppose, and Esmenet -- two characters who aren't as predictable (to me).

SPOILER: The Warrior-Prophet

Is it me, or did Kellhus decide to keep Serwë close so that if anyone decided to invoke "thou shalt not suffer a whore to live", she'd be the likeliest to face the punishment? Since he clearly wants to keep a hold of Esmenet, who probably strikes him as perfect breeding material.

Referring to another thread elsewhere, where someone -- HE, I think -- points out just how crazily risky Kellhus's particular gambit seems to have been, the one thing I can see for it is that those who tried to kill him and _did_ kill Serwë would perhaps feel truly awful guilt about it, and would thus be far likelier to become staunch supporters if things then turned around for him. Will be starting TTT today or tomorrow, so I'll be curious to see if it plays out that way.

[Shryke]

I think knowing alot about the First Crusade will only damage your ability to enjoy the series honestly.

[Foreverlad]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1453027' date='Jul 23 2008, 15.11']I think knowing alot about the First Crusade will only damage your ability to enjoy the series honestly.[/quote]

Oddly enough, the war meant almost nothing to me. I knew next to nothing about the First Crusade and while it was a huge part of the story, it really was (coincidentally) just a means to an end for me. I think Bakker did a good job with it specifically because it helped create a mindset, and the whole point of the series is unraveling mindsets and thoughts.