ASOIAF mod for EU3: Help needed

[Cabezaestufa]

Hi, oh great sages of everything ASOIAF. I'm a humble fan of Paradox Interactive games who has been working in a mod for Europa Universalis 3 set in the A Song of Ice and Fire world for some months. I have managed to get a whole Westeros map working, but now I'm faced with the difficult matter of assigning values to each province (population, tax value, trade good production...). It's a long and boring job, and hard to get right (the balance of the whole game depends on getting it right), and I thought I should start by taking the seven great houses and sorting them according to different considerations. I have started with economy, manpower and trade, and got the following list:

- House Lannister: The economic powerhouse of the Seven Kingdoms. Gold provinces, at least a center of trade in Lannisport. They also have a fair amount of manpower.
Economy: 1st
Manpower: 4th
Trading: 1st

- House Tyrell: Loads of manpower and loads of tax money, but lots of vassals. They get most of their money and troops through them (almos like the Emperor of the HRE).
Economy: 2nd
Manpower: 1st
Trading: 4th

- House Baratheon: Fairly rich, but quite far from the previous two.
Economy: 3rd
Manpower: 5th
Trading: 5th

- House Stark: A lot of manpower but their provinces are quite poor. Fortunately they have a lot of them.
Economy: 4th
Manpower: 2nd
Trading: 7th

- House Martell: Very sparsely populated, but probably makes a lot of money from trade.
Economy: 5th
Manpower: 7th
Trading: 2nd

- House Tully: Rich and fertile lands with a lot of people living in them.
Economy: 6th
Manpower: 3rd
Trading: 6rd

- House Arryn: They might have gotten the short end of the stick here... They are not so far away from the Tullys and Martells though.
Economy: 7th
Manpower: 6th
Trading: 3th

To elaborate a little:

Economy: I guess the last four or five houses in income should be quite close. The Lannisters and Tyrells should be quite ahead of them, but they have some disadvantages too: The Lannisters get a big percentage their money from gold (which can be a very bad thing in EU) and the Tyrells need to keep all their vassals happy in order to get all that money, and let's not get into all the possible backstabbing and treason they are risking with that...

Manpower: Tyrell is uncontested here (except for the fact that, again, they depend a lot on their vassals). The Starks have plenty too, and they have a big advantage in that they can get it from their own provinces, so they are not so reliant on their vassals. The Lannisters can always recruit lots of mercenaries, and I'm not so sure the Tullys should be 3rd here, but the fact that they rule over a densely populated area seems to suggest this. The Arryns lag behind a bit on this, and the Martells are definitely the worst, no contest.

Trading: It mostly refers to the kind of trade goods in their lands, except for the Lannisters and their gold (it should just reflect that they are good at it). The Tyrells have mostly grain and wine, the Martells should have expensive spices, some wine and maybe even a few "oriental goods". The Baratheons... Fish and a bit of metal? The Tullys would have a lot of fish and cattle, I guess. The Arryns should have quite a lot of iron and copper. And the Starks get screwed with a lot cheap goods like grain and fish (but maybe a couple of pelt provinces).


What do you guys think? Are my estimations about right or would you change anything?

Also, if any of you has EU3 (preferably with the Napoleon expansion) and would like to see the map, just tell me. I would of course welcome any suggestions for it too, or for anything else you might think of for that matter :)

Thanks in advance! By the way, I posted this here because it seems to be the place to talk about mods, but since this is not actually a licensed product this might not be the best place... Sorry if that's the case.

[Atreides]

White Harbor should have silver, and probably be the richest Northern province. The Tullys maybe should have some grain/wheat/corn (weren't the Riverlands half of the source of King's Landing's food?). Is there an obsidian resource for Dragonstone?

And what is the general ratio of House lands to vassals? Are most houses vassals, or just the major independent-minded ones (Bolton, Hightower, Florent etc)?

[Cabezaestufa]

I think I'll post some screenshoots to show you the whole map:

[size=4][b]House Stark[/b][/size]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Starks.jpg"]General view[/url]

[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Starks1.jpg"]House Stark 1[/url]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Starks2.jpg"]House Stark 2[/url]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Starks3.jpg"]House Stark 3[/url]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Starks4.jpg"]House Stark 4[/url]

[size=4][b]House Tully[/b][/size]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Tullys.jpg"]House Tully[/url]

[size=4][b]House Arryn[/b][/size]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Arryns1.jpg"]House Arryn 1[/url]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Arryns2.jpg"]House Arryn 2[/url]

[size=4][b]Houses Lannister and Greyjoy[/b][/size]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Lannisters1.jpg"]Houses Lannister and Greyjoy[/url]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Lannisters2.jpg"]House Lannister 2[/url]

[size=4][b]House Tyrell[/b][/size]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Tyrells1.jpg"]House Tyrell 1[/url]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Tyrells2.jpg"]House Tyrell 2[/url]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Tyrells3.jpg"]House Tyrell 3[/url]

[size=4][b]House Baratheon and the King's Demesne[/b][/size]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Baratheons1.jpg"]House Baratheon 1[/url]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Baratheons2.jpg"]House Baratheon 2[/url]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Baratheons3.jpg"]House Baratheon 3[/url]

[size=4][b]House Martell[/b][/size]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Dorne1.jpg"]House Martell 1[/url]
[url="http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l135/Cabezaestufa/ASOIAF/Dorne2.jpg"]House Martell 2[/url]

The map is showing the political view. Each color is for a different country.

If you guys can think of any more provinces, or think names are wrong, or anything, just tell me while there's still time to change the map :P

EDIT: Ermmm... is this forum able to show images? I can't get them to show using the [img] tag for some reason...

[Cabezaestufa]

[quote name='Atreides' post='1316626' date='Apr 16 2008, 18.17']White Harbor should have silver, and probably be the richest Northern province. The Tullys maybe should have some grain/wheat/corn (weren't the Riverlands half of the source of King's Landing's food?). Is there an obsidian resource for Dragonstone?

And what is the general ratio of House lands to vassals? Are most houses vassals, or just the major independent-minded ones (Bolton, Hightower, Florent etc)?[/quote]
The game abstracts gold, silver and all precious metals as just gold, so I guess White Harbor would be a comparatively low income gold province (but still fairly richer than the rest of the nortern provinces). Obsidian is not in the game, but I could always add it or substitute another less relevant good :)

As you can see in the maps, there are a lot of vassals. The great houses themselves have just a handful of provinces, most of their strength should come from their vassals.

[Atreides]

Looks good. I just might have to get EU3 if you complete this.

[Anatole Kuragin]

[quote name='Atreides' post='1317375' date='Apr 16 2008, 20.04']Looks good. I just might have to get EU3 if you complete this.[/quote]

This would be so much better if EU3 was capable of a decent Crusader Kingslike vassalization system. There's a CK ASOIAF mod but it's completely unstable and inaccurate.

[Cabezaestufa]

I take it everybody agrees with the list in my first post? I didn't think it would be that accurate, specially since it has been some time since I read the books...

[quote name='Anatole Kuragin' post='1317428' date='Apr 17 2008, 03.31']This would be so much better if EU3 was capable of a decent Crusader Kingslike vassalization system. There's a CK ASOIAF mod but it's completely unstable and inaccurate.[/quote]
I agree, a vassalization system similar to the one in CK would have been great, but the EU3 engine is more flexible than you might think; you can do incredible things with it. A feudal system can be simulated with a little imagination, and the espionage system (fundamental in a mod like this) is far superior. And also has the big advantage of letting you change the map :P

[Minchandre]

This is amazing! This would definitely give me the final impetus to buy EU3...

I do have a question, though: does EU3 support a tiered vassal system? For example, Honeyholt, Sunhouse, Three Towers, and a few others owe their loyalty directly to Oldtown rather than to Highgarden, and if the Hightowers went against the Tyrells for whatever reason, those houses would probably come down on the side of Oldtown.

[Anatole Kuragin]

[quote name='Minchandre' post='1320665' date='Apr 19 2008, 12.55']This is amazing! This would definitely give me the final impetus to buy EU3...

I do have a question, though: does EU3 support a tiered vassal system? For example, Honeyholt, Sunhouse, Three Towers, and a few others owe their loyalty directly to Oldtown rather than to Highgarden, and if the Hightowers went against the Tyrells for whatever reason, those houses would probably come down on the side of Oldtown.[/quote]

I think that can happy if for example: Oldtown has Honeyholt, Sunhouse, and Three Towers as vassals and then becomes a vassal to Highgarden. I don't think in vanilla a vassal can get vassals after they've become a vassal.

[Skyman]

Hey, as both an EU fan and a SoIaF fan, I'm quite excited to see this being made. Great job so far on the map!

The rankings generally look pretty good. I think I heard a mention of The North and The Vale having a similar number of troops, however, with the Vale being much more fertile. They both might be behind the Riverlands, but probably ahead of the Westerlands. I'm not certain on this though... I think Ran posted a list of the estimated army sizes at some point, but I can't find it (I also think it was before GRR reduced the size of Dorne's army). Might be in The World of Ice and Fire...

[Atreides]

The Westerlands produced the second largest army in the War of the Five Kings, but that might have been due to the fact that it probably takes the North much longer to fully mobilize. And the Riverlands (including Freys) had a force similar to Robb's even after the losses they suffered at the start of the war.

[Inda]

Hi everbody. I've been a fan of EUII and EUIII for a long time and I'd really be glad to play a SoIaF mod.

In EUII you were able to get a "vassalization chain" under right conditions. I think that EU vassals system wouldn't reflect properly the way almost every minor house joined the war at the side of their great houses. I mean, in EU when you make a DoW against a big alliance, a lot of your allies and vassals step back. Anyways, I don't remember if this was allowed in EUIII.

Not sure about this but I think I read somewhere that House Tyrell had the biggest army (around 100000), Lannisters the 2nd (65000, by hiring tons of mercs) and next came North, Tully and the Vale (45000each). Dorne (40000) and Stormlands (30000) would have a few men less and the Greyjoys just half of those (20000). When it cames to naval power, Greyjoys are the strongest, followed by Tyrells and the fleets at Dragonstone and Kinglanding. About wealth: first go Lannisters, second Tyrell and close to them goes the Vale.

The North has a big problem: its always covered by snow and crops are harder to get. So, almost every lord is willing to leave some men to harvest and look after the fields when they go to war. So on, its huge size means that takes a lot of time to gather the army. However, in EU, winter would do the opposite, taking down by atrittion any enemy army in the 1st of each month. So on, in the novels House Tully has another problem: several of its lords are poorly loyal.

[Cabezaestufa]

Thanks for your suggestions, everybody! Based on my initial rankings and your corrections, I have made a rough first estimation of all province values. Feel free to take a look at it and correct any mistake you might see. It's here:

[url="http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pg4xwR1UtvG8hGyJZKT4KZg"]http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pg4...T4KZg[/url]

I tried to get a manpower balance like the one Inda said, but there have been a few changes from his list. For example, the Lannisters have been toned down a bit, but that's because they have so much gold they should have no problem hiring a bunch of mercenaries (who use no manpower). Also, you might notice the Iron Islands are extremely poor, but that's just because they will have other means of getting their money :ninja:

[Cabezaestufa]

[quote name='Minchandre' post='1320665' date='Apr 19 2008, 20.55']This is amazing! This would definitely give me the final impetus to buy EU3...

I do have a question, though: does EU3 support a tiered vassal system? For example, Honeyholt, Sunhouse, Three Towers, and a few others owe their loyalty directly to Oldtown rather than to Highgarden, and if the Hightowers went against the Tyrells for whatever reason, those houses would probably come down on the side of Oldtown.[/quote]
As some people have said already, the answer is yes... but. You can have that if you start the game with that setup, and you can use events to do something similar, but ingame it's much harder to produce something like that (a vassal can't vassalize anybody, AFAIK). Can you think of any more examples of this situation?

[Atreides]

A couple quick things with province values-Casterly Rock should have gold I think, and Gulltown should maybe be a center of trade.

[Minchandre]

[quote name='Atreides' post='1327085' date='Apr 23 2008, 14.57']A couple quick things with province values-Casterly Rock should have gold I think, and Gulltown should maybe be a center of trade.[/quote]

The trade centers should almost certainly be the five cities - White Harbor, Gulltown, King's Landing, Oldtown, and Lannisport. Of course, that leaves a notable gap in the western North - is Pyke a major port?

[Anatole Kuragin]

[quote name='Minchandre' post='1327297' date='Apr 23 2008, 18.28']The trade centers should almost certainly be the five cities - White Harbor, Gulltown, King's Landing, Oldtown, and Lannisport. Of course, that leaves a notable gap in the western North - is Pyke a major port?[/quote]

I think some of the CoTs in the middle/near east encompass land greater than that gap in EU. At least there are in EU2.

[Inda]

[quote]couple quick things with province values-Casterly Rock should have gold I think[/quote]
The biggest value, I think.

[quote]The trade centers should almost certainly be the five cities - White Harbor, Gulltown, King's Landing, Oldtown, and Lannisport. Of course, that leaves a notable gap in the western North - is Pyke a major port?[/quote]
Don't know about Pyke, but Ironmen aren't traditional traders. :P Anyways, in one of the Asha's chapters, while talking with his uncle, is said that Pyke isn't the bigger neither the richer ironisland.

About tradecenters, maybe Highgarden or another Tyrell city could be a CoT as the Mander is open for sail? The same happens with the Forc. Dorne has a regular trade with Free cities if you wanna create a CoT on there.

[Minchandre]

[quote name='Inda' post='1328414' date='Apr 24 2008, 12.08']The biggest value, I think.


Don't know about Pyke, but Ironmen aren't traditional traders. :P Anyways, in one of the Asha's chapters, while talking with his uncle, is said that Pyke isn't the bigger neither the richer ironisland.

About tradecenters, maybe Highgarden or another Tyrell city could be a CoT as the Mander is open for sail? The same happens with the Forc. Dorne has a regular trade with Free cities if you wanna create a CoT on there.[/quote]

So, I was just looking at this again (in expectation! I finally got EU3, and despite its incredible awesomeness, this mod would be awesome-er), and I noted the 4 Shield Isles are one province - was this a conscious decision, or just a convenience thing (each of them is ruled by a different House in the books)

[Cabezaestufa]

[quote name='Minchandre' post='1350856' date='May 11 2008, 08.30']So, I was just looking at this again (in expectation! I finally got EU3, and despite its incredible awesomeness, this mod would be awesome-er), and I noted the 4 Shield Isles are one province - was this a conscious decision, or just a convenience thing (each of them is ruled by a different House in the books)[/quote]
It's conscious. I think these islands are too small to make a whole province out of each one them, so I put them all in the same province and gave it to one of these four houses. Do you think I should separate them? I got the impression that they were sparsely populated and their only real value was in their strategic location.

Oh, before I forget, for those of you who have EU3: [url="http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/2/12/766194/eu3files/A%20Song%20of%20Ice%20and%20Fire.rar"]Here is the current version of the mod[/url]. It's a very early version which amounts to little more than "Risk in Westeros", but the final version should have lots of unique events, significant gameplay changes and anything I can think of to simulate Westeros politics as far as the EU3 engine allows. Suggestions, criticisms... are very welcome. Oh, and you'll probably need the Napoleon expansion for it to work properly...

About the gold in Casterly Rock, you might notice I didn't change that, but that's only because I plan to leave the fine tuning and balancing for when the mod is a bit more complete. I'll probably remove the gold from another Lannister province to put it in the Rock, because I'm worried that the Lannisters are already getting far too much income as it is :P

All the five great cities have COTs, Sunspear too (to simulate their trade with the Free Cities) and I think that should be enough, unless game balance says otherwise in the future.