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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] "New" POV 1 - Spoilers for ADwD

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[quote name='Maia' post='1349161' date='May 9 2008, 13.57']I saw a very interesting quote from the excerpt on-line today:

"Reek has been with me since I was a boy. My lord father gave him to me, as a token of his love."

So, given that Reek used to be a necrophile and stuff, [b]does this mean that Roose purposefully shaped Ramsey into a monster[/b]? If so, then Ramsey's chances of bumping off dear old dad, surviving for much longer and/or of inheriting are minimal. It appears that he was [b]a tool created for specific task[/b] and that Roose ought to be very much aware of all of his flaws and limitations.[/quote]

"Purposefully shaped"? It does seem so. But, from what we know of the Boltons this might even trend towards normalcy - and perhaps even more so where bastards are concerned. Also, one might argue that Roose's [s]child[/s] monster rearing techniques are necessary in order to raise someone that's [s]worthy[/s] adequately monsterous to one day be the Lord of the Dreadfort.

So, maybe this is what he has/had in mind for Ramsay. Of course, I have no idea, but it would be interesting to know some details of the childhood of Roose's dead son (Domeric?), for many years the assumed future LotDf, and how his love tokens compared to the one's that Roose gave Ramsay.

Nonetheless, I'd be interested to know what "specific tasks" you believe Roose has/had in mind for his fine young monster. Sounds too [s]good[/s] evil to pass up... ;)

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The Boltons are some of the sickest, creepiest villians ever.

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[quote name='Greycox' post='1349314' date='May 9 2008, 18.19']But, from what we know of the Boltons this might even trend towards normalcy[/quote]

Well, Roose himself haven't shown himself to be more cruel than such luminaries of "merciless feudal lordism" as Tywin Lannister or Randyll Tarly, nor did he seem to revel in sadism. Sure, proved himself game for any atrocity if it was necessary to forward his aims, but he didn't appear deranged, as Ramsay did, at least so far. And he also seemed far more calculating, of course. I mean, even Theon in his reduced state in this chapter noticed Ramsay's shortcomings and weaknesses.


[quote]Nonetheless, I'd be interested to know what "specific tasks" you believe Roose has/had in mind for his fine young monster. Sounds too [s]good[/s] evil to pass up... ;)[/quote]

I thought about something along the lines of a tool capable of anything, ready to do anything in exchange for acceptance, which could be given Bolton authority without irrefutable self-incrimination as no lowly underling could be, but also might be disowned and eliminated with the ease that no legitimate Bolton or another lordling could be and so flawed and twisted that he would be unable to create a reliable following / power base of his own. IMHO, Bolton foresaw an eventual civil war scenario, which isn't so surprising with a new dynasty on the throne and prepared his monster accordingly.
Too bad for Roose that his heir had to die so inconveniently, but IMHO he intends to consolidate his power in the North and to reconcile the Houses that Ramsey has hurt by throwing the monstrous bastard to them as a sop, while retaining most of his gains. After Ramsey helps Roose's army to pass into the North, he would have served his intended purpose as Roose would no longer be able to claim his ignorance about his shenanigans. OTOH, sacrificing Ramsey would create a big amount of goodwill among the northern lords who have suffered from him and alleviate their need to avenge themselves on House Bolton.

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[quote name='Greycox' post='1349314' date='May 10 2008, 00.19']"Purposefully shaped"? It does seem so. But, from what we know of the Boltons this might even trend towards normalcy - and perhaps even more so where bastards are concerned. Also, one might argue that Roose's [s]child[/s] monster rearing techniques are necessary in order to raise someone that's [s]worthy[/s] adequately monsterous to one day be the Lord of the Dreadfort.[/quote]


The Boltons as Siths? Roose as Master and Ramsay as Apprentice who can replace a Master only by killing him? This sure sounds like a new theory. Seems interesting.

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Roose might not as outwardly deranged and sadistic as Ramsay and the Boltons of the past, but that's probably because he's calculating and knows it won't go over well. I wonder what he would do at the Dreadfort if he cements his power in the North and gets to toss reputation out the window.

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Certainly interesting(and delicious) that Theon has had it so bad. I am a little disappointed that we never got better descriptions of his suffering but it's good to know that he is suffering. And if he is as bad as he seems I really cannot see any purpose for Theon to live past this book unless control of the North is still up in the air or the Others have failed to show up(again).

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[quote]Roose might not as outwardly deranged and sadistic as Ramsay and the Boltons of the past, but that's probably because he's calculating and knows it won't go over well. I wonder what he would do at the Dreadfort if he cements his power in the North and gets to toss reputation out the window.[/quote]
Well, I read somewhere <paraphrase>character is best observed when interacting with those to whom you owe nothing</paraphrase> *damn, can't find the wiki quote*. So, we get a glimpse of Roose's character when Arya as Nan asks Roose whether he'll take her with him to Riverrun when he leaves Harrenhal, and he says something to the effect of "Did you just question me? Must I have your tongue out?" rather matter-of-factly in response. He mode of rulership is through fear, intimidation, and threat, much like most of the lords in the books. The flaying part is just a juicy addendum to "normal" lordly behavior. Thus reputation is there to instill fear in your enemies and respect in your peers, and I think once/if he becomes ascendant in the north, this behavior will not change much. I don't think he's restraining himself from atrocity because he's afraid of what people will think.

The variations on the theme of leadership are encountered several times in the series, and Cersei, Ned, Robb, Tyrion, Stannis and Dany all seem to have different opinions on how to lead, and the rights as well as responsibilities of leadership (Roose's: ALL YOUR LEECHES ARE BELONG TO US). In fact, most of the conflicts are based on the juxtaposition of different definitions of leadership. Cases in point are Rhaegar vs Aerys, Stannis vs Renly, Robb vs Lord Frey, etc...

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Sorry. I'm just confused him.

Reek is Reek,

Then Theon is Reek? Or he's been conditioned to think so?


Why would the Boltons want the fake Arya identified? When she was leaving KL, Jaime talked to her. He thought she might be a little older than the true Arya. He said she wasn't Arya - and someone wondered what the Bolton's would think of that. Jaime said they knew.
This is right before he hops North to subdue Riverrun.

Theon deserves whatever he gets.

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Hang on, there is an excerpt online? Where? I am horribly not-up-to-date. I thought the chapter would just be in the Spectre Pulse magazine. There's an excerpt online? Cookies to anyone who links me!

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If I am not mistaken, as far as everyone is concerned Theon burned down winterfell and killed Bran and Rickon and noone actually knows that Ramsey killed two children in their place.

Why not have Theon kill "Arya" after his wedding with her and then claim Winterfell and all House Stark estate as a Stark widower and sole and rightful heir.

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[quote name='Brienne of Tarth' post='1367649' date='May 23 2008, 03.59']So is there really an excerpt online, as Maia said at the top of this page? I am so ready to jump over and read it if it is.[/quote]

Sorry for unintentionally misleading you. As far as I know there is no excerpt, only the summaries posted in this thread. It was merely this one sentence about Reek which was quoted on-line in a discussion on rec.arts.as.written and I found it so interesting that I brought it up here.

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Fascinating stuff.

Ramsey is not as devious a plotter as Roose, and to a considerable extent has been lucky. I think he is going to roll the dice again, using Reek/Theon.

If those northern lords who are with him can be convinced that Ramsay is marrying the real Arya Stark, they will throw their support behind Ramsay willingly. Especially against a southerner like Stannis.

So Theon must be seen to be uncoerced, and given a chance to recognize the "real" Arya Stark. To that end Ramsay will have Theon cleaned up and rehabilitated as much as possible. (Uncoerced is a relative term of course, since Theon's mind is broken.)

When Theon and Arya/Jeyne Poole meet, the northern lords will be watching closely. Ramsay knows that the results of torture are uncertain, but he likes a good gamble. And Theon certainly has shown that he's willing to do anything (anything!) to survive, so its not that bad a bet.

So can we actually expect one last spark of nobility from Theon, and the actual truth, before he dies?

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Is anybody willing to xerox and mail OR scan and email the Reek chapter?
The mag isn't on ebay (at least anymore) and I can't find a full text anywhere online, so this is my only option.
Thanks.
Also, I'd be willing to make a small (~$5) paypal donation to anybody who helps me out. (Am I allowed to say this? Mods, feel free to edit out this part if you feel its solicitation. It isn't meant to be). Edited by qbunnie

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[quote name='qbunnie' post='1382938' date='Jun 4 2008, 10.09']Is anybody willing to xerox and mail OR scan and email the Reek chapter?
The mag isn't on ebay (at least anymore) and I can't find a full text anywhere online, so this is my only option.
Thanks.
Also, I'd be willing to make a small (~$5) paypal donation to anybody who helps me out. (Am I allowed to say this? Mods, feel free to edit out this part if you feel its solicitation. It isn't meant to be).[/quote]

The chapter is online. I have no idea when it went up, but since it's on amazon's website I assume it is legitimately online.

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[quote name='Gerold Dayne' post='1367145' date='May 22 2008, 21.23']If I am not mistaken, as far as everyone is concerned Theon burned down winterfell and killed Bran and Rickon and noone actually knows that Ramsey killed two children in their place.

Why not have Theon kill "Arya" after his wedding with her and then claim Winterfell and all House Stark estate as a Stark widower and sole and rightful heir.[/quote]

you can't marry into inheritance, he'd have no power unless Jayne bore him a child in which case he would only rule as Regent till the child came of age.

[quote]The chapter is online. I have no idea when it went up, but since it's on amazon's website I assume it is legitimately online.[/quote]

i'm pretty sure it's not online at all, as it would be a copyright issue. though people have posted some very detailed summeries.

[quote]I wonder if Ramsey tortured the "original" Reek, too. Or if there were even more we don't know about.[/quote]

the whole "Reek has been with me since I was a boy. My lord father gave him to me, as a token of his love." makes me doubt that.


personally i can't see Roose wanting to keep Ramsey around for long, he's got a new wife to beget ligitimat children on whose claim would over rule Ramsey's... Ramsey can't be too happy about this, he must know his possition of power is not particularly strong. and Roose must know that Ramsey being heir to the North is not a gonna win many friends.

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[quote]i'm pretty sure it's not online at all, as it would be a copyright issue. though people have posted some very detailed summeries.[/quote]

Yes, the chapter is online at Amazon.co.uk under the sample section... it says something like "want to read a sample?" click the link and there it is.

I have to say that I don't think that this is the whole chapter, but it is some of George's best work to date - I felt so sorry for Theon. I'd say this chapter is right up there with "The Princess In The Tower".

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A great chapter. Interestingly enough, Theon isn't quite as broken as the summaries suggested - he is in survival mode more than anything.

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