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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] "New" POV 1 - Spoilers for ADwD

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[quote name='grinachu' post='1506524' date='Sep 5 2008, 02.01']He's alive because, as Roose Bolton observed to Robb Stark in ASOS, he's useful. And they aren't letting him go. They're taking him somewhere.[/quote]

Yeah from all accounts to meet 'Arya Stark' as she makes her way down the causeway.Also, the bastard of bolton will probably need to use theon on the ironmen holding moat cailin to convince them to cease and desist.

I'm telling you, Bolton is in da HOUSE in book 5. The Flayed Man has come into its own.

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Is it possible that Theon is taken to the North just to give him to the Northern people, kind of present, so they can flay him theirselves there. (Of course on the journey he could became helpful otherwise, and Ramsay knows it.)

(Gut feeling: No, it has to be something more special. I can't see Theon live so much longer though. He just has to press a story button soon and that's it.)

Well, this is the question I would love to hear your opinion on: Is there any reason for Bolton to not tell Ramsay that he's going to marry a fake Arya? (I think not, so why shouldn't he? And I think we can agree that it's highly probable Bolton knows.)

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I've never been a fan of Theon so I never expected to be this eager to read more of his POV but this seems really promising.

It seemes very obvious to me that Ramsey intended the lords present to realize who "Reek" really is. Refering to the ironborn and their saying rather than suggesting they're wrong about Reek being killed by the Starks made that clear.

Another thing that sticks out to me is the straight-backed old man in the byrnie with the flinty eyes (who apparantly is the Umber uncle, Whoresbane). He seems to be very observant for one (identifies Theon immediatley when the other lord needs to be led to the conclusion) and then he says:

[quote]“You would have done better to slit his throat,” said the lord in mail. “A dog who turns against his master is fit for naught but skinning.”[/quote]

Theon isn't the only one who "turned against his master". In fact, Bolton's betrayal of Robb is a lot worse than Theon's since Theon was a hostage to the Starks while Bolton was their bannerman. This suggests to me that the Umber uncles are reluctant allies to the Boltons.

And the task Ramsay wants "Reek" to do seems to be in some way connected to the wedding. There's a chance he wants Theon to tell him whether his bride is really Arya Stark but I don't think that's his main use. It's not really necessary to clean him up and feed him better for that and I don't think Ramsay really cares. Whatever Ramsay has in mind for Theon it does seem to require people to be able to easily identify him. The public execution as a "wedding gift" someone suggested seems a very possible plan.

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This was not a good chapter as the other three were but it gave some interesting insights.

The story about Lady Hornwood eating her fingers is given a new angle here. She had not eaten off her fingers because she was hungry from starvation, she did it to stem off the pain from flaying

But Theon eats a live rat?? That just doesn't make sense. The rat would have taken off half of Theon's face if this happened for real.

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[quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1538302' date='Oct 1 2008, 05.39']This was not a good chapter as the other three were but it gave some interesting insights.

The story about Lady Hornwood eating her fingers is given a new angle here. She had not eaten off her fingers because she was hungry from starvation, she did it to stem off the pain from flaying

But Theon eats a live rat?? That just doesn't make sense. The rat would have taken off half of Theon's face if this happened for real.[/quote]

Actually Theon wrings the rats neck fist then eats it. A rat is no match for a human unless said human is in an obullite. :)

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[quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1538302' date='Oct 1 2008, 12.39']But Theon eats a live rat?? That just doesn't make sense. The rat would have taken off half of Theon's face if this happened for real.[/quote]

Well,you can't really tell,until you try that yourself :)

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[quote name='Andhaira' post='1538312' date='Oct 1 2008, 14.11']Actually Theon wrings the rats neck fist then eats it. A rat is no match for a human unless said human is in an obullite. :)[/quote]

Actually:

"The rat squealed as he bit into it, squirming wildly in his hands. The belly was the softest part. [...] By the third bite the rat had ceased to struggle, and he was feeling almost content."

Belly-eating = claws and teeth pointed toward eyes-nose-cheeks-chin

[quote]Well,you can't really tell,until you try that yourself :)[/quote]

While trying to fondle the rat in my basement, I lost my left nostril and right cheek and had my brows disfigured. True story that. I have been on Ratoholics-Anonymous for 3 years now. I feel (like us all in RHA) for Theon.

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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1538331' date='Oct 1 2008, 07.50']Belly-eating = claws and teeth pointed toward eyes-nose-cheeks-chin



While trying to fondle the rat in my basement, I lost my left nostril and right cheek and had my brows disfigured. True story that. I have been on Ratoholics-Anonymous for 3 years now. I feel (like us all in RHA) for Theon.[/quote]
I'm sorry, but you're bringing the latent skeptic in me out. :P
The rat isn't peacabley laying on a plate when Theon comes along and takes a bite out of it's belly. No doubt he's [i]holding it[/i]. Probably with both hands. One hand clamping the hind legs and the other hand clamping the head and front legs. Sure, it might be trying to claw and bite his hands, but his face is probably at minimal risk after he's gotten the knack of it figured out.

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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1538396' date='Oct 1 2008, 16.04']I'm sorry, but you're bringing the latent skeptic in me out. :P[/quote]

Those rats are tricky bastards. As Lord Ramsey tells us these rats are no ordinary rats, they're [b][color="#FF00FF"]Bolton rats[/color][/b], schooled in the delicate and exacting art of flaying people.

Reek is not that experienced , the Bolton men have been protecting their proteges and even if we accept your questionable assumption that Reek would want to start with the belly and go to the trouble of incapacitating its legs and mouth for this purpose (and why didn't Martin go to the trouble of describing it after he described all those other gritty little details?) we have to remember that Reek only has 7 fingers. A holy number to some, but not as good as 10, and those 7 are kind of bony and decrepit. Could he overpower a [b][color="#FF00FF"]Bolton rats[/color][/b] in his prime, well fed on Reeky flesh? I doubt it.

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[quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1538331' date='Oct 1 2008, 04.50']Actually:

"The rat squealed as he bit into it, squirming wildly in his hands. The belly was the softest part. [...] By the third bite the rat had ceased to struggle, and he was feeling almost content."

Belly-eating = claws and teeth pointed toward eyes-nose-cheeks-chin



While trying to fondle the rat in my basement, I lost my left nostril and right cheek and had my brows disfigured. True story that. I have been on Ratoholics-Anonymous for 3 years now. I feel (like us all in RHA) for Theon.[/quote]

I think it just states the belly is the softest part, not that all three bites went to the belly. The first could have been to the back of the neck, killing the rat.

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Which reminds me, doesn't anyone else here feel for brave Lady Hornwood and the cruelty imposed upon her.

Also, why didn't the Hornwood men lauch some sort of offensive on the Dreadfort? Did the Hornwoods take their entire strength with them? If so why would one do that when your neighbours are Boltons?

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[quote name='Andhaira' post='1539810' date='Oct 2 2008, 08.32']Also, why didn't the Hornwood men lauch some sort of offensive on the Dreadfort?[/quote]
They may not have had anyone in a clear enough position of leadership to do so, or if there was someone, he may have felt too cautious to risk such a thing, or they may not have felt Lady Hornwood was worth it to them...she was actually a Manderly, not a real Hornwood. Let the Manderlys go rescue her, [i]their[/i] next lord might well be someone totally unrelated to her, like Larance Snow. That sort of timidity is especially likely if the Hornwood men felt very uncertain of their position and futures.

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[quote name='grinachu' post='1506524' date='Sep 5 2008, 03.01']He's alive because, as Roose Bolton observed to Robb Stark in ASOS, he's useful. And they aren't letting him go. They're taking him somewhere.[/quote]

I agree with your first observation, but do we know he isn't part of a swap? If Asha has "Arya" then what better demand of the Boltons but the release of Theon in exchange for Ramsey's bride-to-be? Of course, double-dealing, ambush, a knife-in-the-back, etc. should all be expected if that is the case. Wherever they are going, I don't expect a nice orderly and smooth sequence of events.

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Just read the sample chapter. Something puzzles me after reading it. Why has Ramsey gone to such lengths to make Theon assume the identity of Reek?

I can buy that one way to break him is to make him have some sort of identity crisis to mess with his mind i.e. give him a new name, punish him if he speaks his real name, etc. But why "Reek," the name of this alleged servant that was killed back in a ACoK? (one of Ramsey's guests, Whoresbane or whoever, confirms that he'd heard of the real Reek, so I'm assuming that there was indeed a servant named Reek back in the day...)

Ramsey's line makes things even more creepy/confusing "Reek has been with me since I was a boy. My lord father gave him to me, as a token of his love." Does Ramsey always keep a "Reek" around to torture? And he just has some weird fetish for calling this punching bag Reek? Was the one who died in ACoK even the first Reek? I also don't think this is a case of trying to hide Theon's true identity, since I'm pretty sure everyone already knows that Ramsey either has Theon in captivity or has already killed him.

So why make him call himself Reek? Is this forced identity crisis relevant to the previous debate about Ramsey's ultimate plans for Theon? Just curious if anyone had any thoughts on the matter.

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[quote name='Andhaira' post='1539810' date='Oct 2 2008, 14.32']Also, why didn't the Hornwood men lauch some sort of offensive on the Dreadfort? Did the Hornwoods take their entire strength with them? If so why would one do that when your neighbours are Boltons?[/quote]

Well Boltons are second most powerfull house in the North.Hornwoods probably lacked men,strategy and leader to do something.

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Ye, I always read it that most of the Hornwood leaders as well the most seasoned warriors went south with Robb.

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[quote name='vlada' post='1550701' date='Oct 10 2008, 08.05']Boltons kick ass.[/quote]


Boltons make me unusually aware of my gag reflex.

Regarding psycho Ramsay and "Reek"-- Since Ramsay's father evinces no love for him at any point, indeed hoping at one point he has been conveniently killed, there has to be some sort of twisted psychotic double-entendre involved with Ramsey's calling different servants/captives "Reek". Perhaps his father "gave" him the idea of making some poor tortured sucker into a "Reek" by doing the same to him at some point.. or by teaching him to flay captives as a birthday present. There just has to be something truly grotesque behind that statement that his father "gave" him Reek "as a token of love". Something along the lines of what Randyll Tarly did to Sam, chaining him to a wall for three days to punish him for wanting to go to the Citadel-- but exponentially more twisted and creepy. Something that results in Ramsay enjoying always having some poor disgusting henchman around to use whenever Ramsey needs, say, a decoy to die in his place. Ugh, I just remembered what Ramsay said about the situation when he sent the last Reek off disguised as himself-- that he was short of time because the Reek was having sex with the corpse of some woman Ramsay had presumably raped and killed.

I have a strong stomach generally, but Martin can make me heave. YECCCCCCCCCCCHHHHH!

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This post involves both this new POV and one of Jon's spoiler chapters.

The whole situation with Ramsey seems strange to begin with. Why would Roose want his tainted blood, bastard son who obviously has some serious issues to marry a real (or fake, doesn't matter) Arya Stark in order to become a new lord of Winterfell? Why wouldn't he arrange for his fat Frey wife to have an unfortunate accident and marry Arya himself, and leave the Dreadfort for the bastard son until the fake Arya bore him sons to then replace Ramsey? Wouldn't Ramsey ALWAYS be a danger to Roose and offspring until he was killed?

This ties in with Jon's chapter with Mel, although not directly. I was just wondering whether the "enemies that smile at you" was referring to Theon and danger from Theon and Ramsey (Theon has been described over and over as smiling all the time in the series). If fake Arya is presented to the world as being real, the only one at this point who would have any power to refute that is Jon Snow. As far as anyone knows, the rest of the Stark children have disappeared, but Jon Snow is not only alive and well, but a commander of the NW now, so has some credibility. I see a potential danger to Jon from Ramsey and Theon, especially if Jon hears that Arya is at the Dreadfort or rebuilding Winterfell. Especially given what Roose has done with the Freys in betraying the Starks.

Perhaps this twisted situation will make the story more interesting, but I would find it a bit of a stretch given what we know about how Westeros society works with trueborn children vs. bastards.

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[quote name='sholtzma' post='1554536' date='Oct 14 2008, 03.30']The whole situation with Ramsey seems strange to begin with. Why would Roose want his tainted blood, bastard son who obviously has some serious issues to marry a real (or fake, doesn't matter) Arya Stark in order to become a new lord of Winterfell? Why wouldn't he arrange for his fat Frey wife to have an unfortunate accident and marry Arya himself, and leave the Dreadfort for the bastard son until the fake Arya bore him sons to then replace Ramsey? Wouldn't Ramsey ALWAYS be a danger to Roose and offspring until he was killed?[/quote]
Agreed. I think that the answer is that Roose, at least in ASoS, still needed Ramsay. Roose was after all still stuck south of The Neck, and his hold over the North was not exactly secure. This makes "Arya", and the legitimisation, bribes to keep Ramsay onside.

Ramsay OTOH now no longer needs Roose, certainly not once he has got his hands on "Arya".

I will not be at all surprised if they turn on each other in ADwD.

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