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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] "New" POV 1 - Spoilers for ADwD

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[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1323251' date='Apr 21 2008, 13.39']B's M & wvlr:

Why would it matter to Ramsay whether or not his bride was really Arya Stark or not? She serves the same purpose either way.[/quote]


TFM,

I would say that there could be any number of reasons.

One could be personal pride. Being a bastard he might want a "real" Arya due to a personal pride issue.

Also, if she is real vs/ not real it effects how he reacts to others.

A. If she is fake and KL knows this, then they hold something over his head.

B. The same with his "allies" that know the truth.

c. Also, a real Arya, is more usable in court where he is entertaining "questionable" lords that might use the "False" Arya knowledge against him.



A fake Arya would have to be kept "out of view" where as a real Arya would be "Flaunted".

A fake Arya would need to die early, where as a Real Arya that he was able to "Turn" to his cause could become an even more usefull tool.



These are all reasonably rational reasons that Ramsy might have. I musy however submit that above and beyond the "rational", Ramsey might have some un-rational reasons for this. Because I really do not see either Ramsey or Roose as necessarily being all that sane. They might be quite sane, but I am not completely convinced of it. Edited by wvlr

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[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1323118' date='Apr 21 2008, 15.28']I'm not sure I follow. The northern lords will forget that he's a notorious oathbreaker whose word can't be trusted, and that as a hostage he has every reason to lie (to save himself further torture), and give him any credence at all because... why, exactly? Because they've _heard_ of him? That's preposterous.

In any case, the northern lords will publicly state that fake-Arya is the genuine article to the extent that it benefits them. The fate of Stannis' story about Joffrey should prove instructive: Olenna and Margaery know full well that Tommen is illegitimate, and that doesn't cause an annulment because it wouldn't serve Tyrell interests. They won't need the word of an oathbreaker to convince them to go along; the political situation as they understand will guide them one way or another..[/quote]

I'd say it's kind of like Jon's "paper shield" are the Lannister going to take his word that he's not helping Stannis, No, but it IS a little insurence which is better than no insurence. And as you say those that it suits their political interest will eat this up regardless.

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I can't think of a reason for Ramsay or Roose to want anyone, Theon or the Winterfell serving staff, to confirm the identity of the false Arya right now. Nothing will make her look more shady than a public announcement that this is the 'real' Arya Stark before anyone even questions otherwise.

If they are going to do that though, Theon might be more useful as one of the detractors, claiming that this is not Arya Stark. If he's one of the first to raise the objection, who's going to want to side with the opinion of Theon Turncloak?

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[quote name='wvlr' post='1323334' date='Apr 21 2008, 17.20']A. If she is fake and KL knows this, then they hold something over his head.[/quote]

Not particularly. This is the Arya Stark 'discovered' by Littlefinger, and delivered up by Tywin Lannister; King's Landing has staked its credibility on it. And in any case, King's Landing has something much more important hanging over his head: a substantial military superiority.

[quote]B. The same with his "allies" that know the truth.[/quote]

If they could prove what they said. If they can't, it's Joffrey's bastardy all over again.

[quote]c. Also, a real Arya, is more usable in court where he is entertaining "questionable" lords that might use the "False" Arya knowledge against him.[/quote]

Again, can they prove it?

[quote]A fake Arya would have to be kept "out of view" where as a real Arya would be "Flaunted".

A fake Arya would need to die early, where as a Real Arya that he was able to "Turn" to his cause could become an even more usefull tool.[/quote]

Look at how Ramsay treated Lady Hornwood. Chances are, 'Arya' will be kept out of view and will die early no matter what. Edited by The Fat Man

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About King's Landing having military superiority-at the moment, they really don't. Sure they have the Redwyne Fleet, but it's sailing to meet the Ironborn on the other side of the continent. And Aurane Waters has the rest. And now that the Boltons have Moat Cailin, even the massive Tyrell army would be hard pressed to invade the North. If (once?) the Boltons know that King's Landing no longer has a fleet, they don't have to worry about immediate repercussions.

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[quote name='Atreides' post='1323566' date='Apr 21 2008, 19.23']About King's Landing having military superiority-at the moment, they really don't. Sure they have the Redwyne Fleet, but it's sailing to meet the Ironborn on the other side of the continent. And Aurane Waters has the rest. And now that the Boltons have Moat Cailin, even the massive Tyrell army would be hard pressed to invade the North. If (once?) the Boltons know that King's Landing no longer has a fleet, they don't have to worry about immediate repercussions.[/quote]

I mean superiority as of when this chapter takes place, i.e., the beginning of AFFC. From Ramsay's POV (assuming that he, like Littlefinger, will be unable to foresee the depth of Cersei's incompetence), the Lannister-Tyrell alliance is simply too powerful to ignore no matter who 'Arya' turns out to be.

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[quote name='urizen' post='1321473' date='Apr 20 2008, 09.14']I never felt bad for Theon before (I might after this chapter though) because he, in my opinion, was [u]never [/u]a victim of circumstance. He brought it upon himself through his stupidity and arrogance. Theon's incapable to take responsibilty for his own actions. It's always someone else's fault, be it Asha, Reek/Ramsay or anybody else. Theon is similar to Jorah Mormont in this case, who blames Ned for his misfortune. Nevermind that Jorah is up to eyeballs in debt and sells his people into slavery, according to him it's Ned who's a dirty, rotten bastard for upholding the law.[/quote]

This, this, and this. I've always deeply disliked Theon for his arrogance and "it's not my fault, they made me do it" attitude. He's ignorant, whiny and self-pitying, and too damn old to be acting that way. Yes, he was in essence a glorified hostage and no, it wasn't his fault that his father decided to rebel against the king and he was the price of that rebellion. But that's just life in Westeros. He could have gotten much worse in terms of hostage arrangements. The Starks could have just thrown him in a room and left him there for the rest of his life. Robert could have chosen to take no prisoners and raze the Iron Islands, obliterating House Greyjoy in the process--one nation against a kingdom isn't going to win a war, even with their fleets. But no, Theon was accepted and treated with every courtesy as befits his birth, included him in almost every activity, and generally tried to make him feel like part of the family--even though they had no legal obligation to do so. He did not have to love the Starks--but attacking the home that sheltered and raised him is shitty, pure and simple. Hopefully, some torture and humiliation will improve his behavior, similar to the gradual turn-about Jaime is experiencing since losing his sword hand. It's amazing how quickly arrogance diminishes after losing a few body parts. Take that, Dr. Phil.

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Of course Ramsey would want someone to verify Arya's identity. Because that piece of information is important.

I'm not saying he wouldn't try to foist the fake Arya as the real one on the North in either case, of course he will. But knowing she is real (or not) gives him another piece on the board that he can play with.

Remember, Ramsey knows that Bran and Rickon are alive. In fact I suspect he secretly has men looking for rumors of wolves traveling with people all over the north.

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[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1323543' date='Apr 21 2008, 18.11']Look at how Ramsay treated Lady Hornwood. Chances are, 'Arya' will be kept out of view and will die early no matter what.[/quote]
Doesn't she need to produce an heir first to solidify the Bolton claim to Winterfell?

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Angalin:

I was assuming that she would die after she's produced an heir for Ramsay, but that would still count as early, no?

[quote name='The Scabbard Of the Morning' post='1323917' date='Apr 21 2008, 23.28']Of course Ramsey would want someone to verify Arya's identity. Because that piece of information is important.[/quote]

I think you forgot the part of your post where you make an argument in support of your position. "Of course X. X!" is not a winning argument.

And even if Ramsay wanted to know whether fake-Arya really was Arya, he hardly needs to bring Theon out of the dungeons and give him the possibility of escape in order to do so. Since you agree that it won't change his behavior, Ramsay could just as easily take Theon out of his cell briefly when he arrives back in the Dreadfort with his bride in tow.

[quote]Remember, Ramsey knows that Bran and Rickon are alive. In fact I suspect he secretly has men looking for rumors of wolves traveling with people all over the north.[/quote]

Actually, the Liddle that Bran meets in his second chapter of ASoS confirms as much. Edited by The Fat Man

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How Ramsey can be sure that Theon will recognize Arya if he even does not remember his name and thinks that Freys are sons of Big and Little Walder he saw some time ago. Theon is not good source of information like that in his current mental state. Edited by Roza Ahai

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[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1323961' date='Apr 21 2008, 21.51']I was assuming that she would die after she's produced an heir for Ramsay, but that would still count as early, no?[/quote]
Oh - I thought you meant early as in a few months after marriage. No, not that early. If Ramsay were thinking straight, he would wait for a couple of children to pop out (the "heir and spare" approach favoured by the House of Windsor), but that is unlikely. However, given "Arya's" official age of eleven, wouldn't a few people be wondering if she got pregnant right away? None of them with any real influence, mind you.

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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='Loras' post='1323061' date='Apr 21 2008, 15.02']I thought that it was pretty easy to take MC from the North, does Catelyn not mention that in the first book because she thinks that it is almost impossible to take it from the South.[/quote]
Maybe there are spells woven into Moat Cailin that only work against the South, but who can say? I doubt even most of the characters could tell that for sure. The remaining towers all had to be reached by wooden walkways over the swamp, so it's not like they're physically any easier to reach from the north.The main reason why it was easier to take from the North was that the Stark garrison [i]didn't expect an attack from the north[/i]. They just weren't looking that way. The Ironborn garrison, on the other hand, has [i]every reason[/i] to expect an attack from the north.[quote]I wouldn't see it as a reason to use Theon anyway, why not use a captive who looks even worse than Theon if you are trying to scare someone?[/quote]
Because they don't have any respect for Old Nan's toughness. They see the Greenlanders as weak and soft; bringing Theon demonstrates that the Boltons can reduce even [i]Ironborn[/i] men to quivering wrecks. Of course, they probably don't see Theon as a real Ironborn after all the years he lived away, but he's still a better example than the women and children of Winterfell that Ramsay captured. Edited by Other-in-law

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[quote]Including Jaime Lannister and Sandor Clegane?[/quote]
I have a feeling that Catelyn and parents of that boy cut in half would strongly agree. I enjoy these characters - they are fictional, afterall - but it's not me mourning my dead children. I don't have to see them scream in pain, or bury them, or writhe in agony with broken bones, tortured by fever, I won't need people help me so I won't shit in my own bed, etc, etc.
SG has a weak excuse of following royals' orders, which is every citizens duty in theory, although I bet it's cold comfort for someone cut in half.

Theon had reasons for doing what he's doing, but reasons aren't excuses. All crimes, but those done by crazies, have some reasons. and it sucks that he was separated from his family (some family, though...), but it is absolutely no excuse to kill two kids who did you absolutely nothing wrong and to threaten lives of children you saw growing up.

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[quote name='Cruella_Da_Oz' post='1324345' date='Apr 22 2008, 07.12']I have a feeling that Catelyn and parents of that boy cut in half would strongly agree. I enjoy these characters - they are fictional, afterall - but it's not me mourning my dead children. I don't have to see them scream in pain, or bury them, or writhe in agony with broken bones, tortured by fever, I won't need people help me so I won't shit in my own bed, etc, etc.
SG has a weak excuse of following royals' orders, which is every citizens duty in theory, although I bet it's cold comfort for someone cut in half.

Theon had reasons for doing what he's doing, but reasons aren't excuses. All crimes, but those done by crazies, have some reasons. and it sucks that he was separated from his family (some family, though...), but it is absolutely no excuse to kill two kids who did you absolutely nothing wrong and to threaten lives of children you saw growing up.[/quote]
The question was asked in somewhat of a jest, but I commend you for taking the time to present a well-reasoned and well-stated response to what, after all, is a very tough question. Thank you

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Well, if Lord Roose and Ramsay are already aware that Lord Tywin had died when this chapter took place, they may truly want to know if Ramsay is marrying Arya Stark or not. Most likely, Ramsay's marriage with Arya should make him Lord of Winterfell while Roose's trueborn children of fat Walda are going to get the Dreadfort.

But Roose Bolton is cautious man. With Lord Tywin dead, the King whose Warden of the North he now is, might not be as a reliable ally as Roose had hoped, when he betrayed Robb. Although the Boltons and the Freys are either way much on the own in pacifying the North (meaning getting the Lords in line and crushing the Ironborn and Stannis), the death of Lord Tywin might have made it much more difficult for the Northern Lords to suffer the Bastard of the Dreadfort as the new Lord of Winterfell.

So it will be not entirely unimportant if 'Arya Stark' is truly Arya Stark. If she is, it would be rather difficult for any faction opposing the Boltons to prove otherwise (and good for the Boltons to know). If she is not, then it's important to know how convincing she is, and how any accuser could be best proven false.

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IMO, I don't think identifying fake-Arya is what Ramsay has in mind for Theon. Does he have much reason to even suspect she isn't the real Arya? And if he did, wouldn't/couldn't he just torture it out of her and know for sure? I don't think it would even take much coersion before she sang like the little songbird she is. I just think he has something bigger (and more sinister) in mind for our good friend Reek.

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Remember, Ramsey did not personally take part in the Red Wedding, and he supposedly "rescued" Winterfell from Theon turncloak who murdered Robb Stark's brothers.

I wouldn't put it past Ramsey to be plotting against Roose Bolton, if he marries Arya who with Sansa missing is in line to inherit Winterfell, he could secretly play himself as the leader of the pro-Stark faction among the Northern Lords and plot some kind of takeover against Bolton.

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Actually, it does not even take much of a plot - just do in Dead old Dad.

Say - give him a set of 5 pound leeches for his daily leeching.

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I just got a copy in the mail today.

Here is my summary:

[i]The chapter opens with the then-unidentified POV biting into a rat that is still alive. He delights in the sweetness of the meat, tears coming to his eyes. Then he hears voices and stops eating, fearing getting caught eating the rat - for which Lord Ramsay will hurt him. He knows he should hide the rat and thinks on the fate of Lady Hornwood. Then he decides to eat as much of it as he can as quickly as he can. He thinks, let them go to another cell and notes that he can hear the screams from them, the women screaming the loudest. He tries to suck down the last bit of meat and spit out the bone, but it becomes tangled in his beard.

The footsteps stop outside his door and he drops his rat. The bright light makes him shriek, and he hears a boys voice indicating they've gotten the wrong cell. The other boy assures them it is correct and the boys mock him for eating rats and for his stench. He thinks that the rats gnaw on him as he sleeps and eating them is his only defense then admits to having done so for that reason.

The boys ask him his name but he isn't sure; the only thing he is sure of is that a wrong answer will cost him another finger. Then one of the boys tells him his name is Reek and he remembers. He also knows he wasn't born with that name. He also remembers the names of the boys, Big Walder and Little Walder, though Big was the smaller, to their ongoing amusement. They instruct him to come with them in response to His Lordship's need.

Reek is afraid and he notes that they are but two boys of eight years. Even in his state, he should be able to overcome two small boys and make a break for it. But he rejects the idea, noting that escape is a trap and that he will lose more teeth and a finger if he tries. His only escape from harm is to serve and obey and remember his name. He follows, meek as a dog with its tail between its legs.

It is night at the Dreadfort and the moon is full. The castle is characterized by having tall triangular merlons like sharp teeth. It is cold and he notes the smells of the real world. He also wonders how much time has passed - six months, a year or five? But the boys are still boys so it can't be too long. He notes that he must retain his sanity, even if he loses toes, fingers, eyes and ears.

Little Walder leads and Reek follows, with Big Walder trailing. The wind cuts through his rags, making him cold, even though there is no snow. He also wonders how many fingers he will still have by the time snow arrives. He looks at his hands and they are the hands of an old man and speculates that it may be that the boys are the sons of the Walders he knew.

He enters the hall and sees rows of torches held by skeletal human hands, the ceiling not visible from the smoke. He is both mocked and sniffed at as he goes past, but notes there are newcomers present and Ramsay's favorites near the dais. The Bastard sits in his fathers chair drinking from his father's cup, sharing the table with two older men looking like lords. One is gaunt with a white beard, wearing a jerkin of ragged, dirty bearskin, a byrnie even at the table. The second is thin also, but twisted, his eyes grey, his teeth yellow and his forked beard tangled and white. He's bald, but his cloak is fine and fastened with a silver clasp in the shape of a starburst.

Ramsay is clad in pink and white, with black leather accoutrements. In his right ear is a garnet shaped like a blooddrop. Despite fancy clothes, he is ugly, with bad posture and fleshy and Reek thinks he'll end up fat as he ages. His skin is blotchy but he has his father's piercing pale grey eyes.

Ramsay introduces Reek as a friend he's known since he was a boy. One of the lords is surprised, having heard the servant dead at the hands of the Starks, but Ramsay points out that the Ironborn will tell you that what is dead may never die, but rises again stronger. Like Reek. Then confesses that Reek does smell of the grave.

The second lord points out he smells like stale vomit and nightsoil and wonders why Ramsay inflicts him upon them whilst they eat. The first lord looks closely and notes that despite the weight loss and hair color, he is no serving man. The second lord then agrees and asks if it can be Stark's old ward, who always smiled.

Ramsay confesses that Reek smiles less now because of broken teeth, but otherwise doesn't disagree. The first lord says that Ramsay should have slit his throat - as a dog who attacks his master is fit for nothing save a skinning. Ramsay admits to having done a bit of that here and there as well.

Reek speaks up and points out that he was bad and insolent, silently reminding himself he must serve and obey. Reek notes blood around Reek's mouth and asks if he's been chewing his fingers. Reek swears he hasn't and recalls that Ramsay likes to flay skin and allow it to fester. He also recalls it as the worst pain he's ever felt. A pain to make a man mad, and beg to have the digit cut off, to which Lord Ramsay would normally agree. But when Reek tried to bite it off himself, he was punished.

Reek confesses to having eaten a rat. Ramsay stares at him, pointing out that the rats are his Lord Fathers and that they can't be eaten without his father's leave. Reek doesn't know what to say, so remains silent. He fears that Ramsay will follow up on previous threat to balance out his feet and hands, which currently stand at short two fingers on the left hand, but only the pinky on the right. And short three toes on the left foot but only the little one on the right. But he tells himself His Lordship only hurts him when he gives him reason to do so and that he is merciful and kind. Some of Reeks comments early on were so bad he deserved flaying of his face as a punishment.

Ramsay interrupts the silence with news that he is to marry Lord Eddard's daughter Arya, whom he should remember. He says he does remember her, thinking of her nicknames "Underfoot" and "Horseface" but not saying them. He also remembers Sansa as the pretty one, and recalls a dream he'd held that someday Lord Eddard might have offered him her hand and treated him as another son - but dismisses the thought as a childish fancy. He admits to remembering Arya.

Ramsay says she'll be Lady of Winterfell with him as her lord and asks Reek if he'll attend his wedding. Reek congratulates him and agrees if Ramsay wishes it, which he does. Ramsay insists that they must feed him, clean him up and scrub him pink again. He'll need his strength for a task Ramsay has in mind. If Reek wants to serve him.

Reek assures Ramsay he does and begs him to let his Reek serve him.

Since he's asked nicely, Ramsay cannot refuse and indicates that he will ride to war, with Reek alongside as he goes to fetch his virgin bride.[/i]

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