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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] "New" POV 1 - Spoilers for ADwD

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Cybroleach:

I don't think we've seen anybody called Lord because they married the current Lady of a noble house before. Tyrek Lannister didn't become known as Lord Tyrek after marrying Lady Hayford. Certainly he wasn't called Lord Tyrek _before_ his marriage.

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[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1328159' date='Apr 24 2008, 12.24']Cybroleach:

I don't think we've seen anybody called Lord because they married the current Lady of a noble house before.[/quote]

But didn't Ramsey already laid claim to the Hornwood Lordship? Formally, that's where his title could derive from. And of course he may be planning to bum off Roose, but I just don't see Roose as any easy mark. IMHO, he is more intelligent than his son and not deranged.

And Reek was Ramsey's childhood companion? Ugh... where did Bolton have him raised again?

About Karstarks not liking Boltons and Arnulf throwing them for Stannis... I am not sure. Clearly, the things aren't so fairy-tale-ish anymore and it seems to me that while Arnulf may not go as far as kinslaying, he'd be pleased with anybody who clears his way to lordship(s). And Bolton has Harrion, who is the rightful Lord Karstark and if Arnulf throws in with Stannis, then Harrion could be played against him. OTOH, siding with the Boltons could result in quiet removal of Harrion. Winterfell is all very nice, but it is a burnt-out ruin and trying to claim the North will be difficult. A bird in hand and all that.

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[quote name='Maia' post='1328206' date='Apr 24 2008, 11.52']But didn't Ramsey already laid claim to the Hornwood Lordship? Formally, that's where his title could derive from. And of course he may be planning to bum off Roose, but I just don't see Roose as any easy mark. IMHO, he is more intelligent than his son and not deranged.[/quote]

Of course, you're right. I'd forgotten about his brief marriage to Lady Hornwood.

And I don't expect Ramsay's plan to necessarily work either; most people who would otherwise be tempted to follow him have to consider that Ramsay is actively sadistic while Roose is simply cold pragmatism personified. I'd much rather have to deal with the latter than the former.

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[quote name='Ran' post='1328073' date='Apr 24 2008, 15.27']The point others raised regarding Arnolf possibly playing both sides against the middle, or playing Stanns, are well taken. It's curious to see how a battle transpires, given that Stannis doesn't march on the Dreadfort directly as he at one point seems to have planned before Robb directs him to Deepwood Motte.[/quote]

The politics of the North does seem fascinating. A rare slip though, Ran- I think you mean Jon, not Robb here. Robb isn't giving directions to anyone at this point.

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[quote name='Maia' post='1328206' date='Apr 24 2008, 16.52']But didn't Ramsey already laid claim to the Hornwood Lordship? Formally, that's where his title could derive from. And of course he may be planning to bum off Roose, but I just don't see Roose as any easy mark. IMHO, he is more intelligent than his son and not deranged.

And Reek was Ramsey's childhood companion? Ugh... where did Bolton have him raised again?

About Karstarks not liking Boltons and Arnulf throwing them for Stannis... I am not sure. Clearly, the things aren't so fairy-tale-ish anymore and it seems to me that while Arnulf may not go as far as kinslaying, he'd be pleased with anybody who clears his way to lordship(s). And Bolton has Harrion, who is the rightful Lord Karstark and if Arnulf throws in with Stannis, then Harrion could be played against him. OTOH, siding with the Boltons could result in quiet removal of Harrion. Winterfell is all very nice, but it is a burnt-out ruin and trying to claim the North will be difficult. A bird in hand and all that.[/quote]

I agree with your point about the Hornwood Lordship- Maia. I think there's a psychological aspect here as well, Ramsay Snow is delighted to become a Lord, and rejoices in the title.

I doubt Bolton took much interest in his bastard until his bastard proved himself useful.

Were things ever fairytalish in ASOIAF?

Are you sure Bolton has Harrion? I thought Harrion's present whereabouts were unknown. I always saw Bran ultimately making peace with Harrion when he comes back to claim Winterfell, it would be a shame if he was just quietly disposed of.

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[quote name='grinachu' post='1328282' date='Apr 24 2008, 10.44']Are you sure Bolton has Harrion? I thought Harrion's present whereabouts were unknown. I always saw Bran ultimately making peace with Harrion when he comes back to claim Winterfell, it would be a shame if he was just quietly disposed of.[/quote]

Wasn't Harrion, Ser Wylis and the other prisoners of the Battle of the Green Fork "returned" when Roose took Harrenhal from Lorch? If so, then yes - it seems that Harrion is with Roose. I know it was Tyrion's plan to make some prisoner exchanges that involved Harrion, but I think a combination of Tywin's rule and Weasel's soup got in the way.

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[quote name='Greycox' post='1328316' date='Apr 24 2008, 19.12']Wasn't Harrion, Ser Wylis and the other prisoners of the Battle of the Green Fork "returned" when Roose took Harrenhal from Lorch? If so, then yes - it seems that Harrion is with Roose. I know it was Tyrion's plan to make some prisoner exchanges that involved Harrion, but I think a combination of Tywin's rule and Weasel's soup got in the way.[/quote]

my recollection is Harrion left Harrenhall before Bolton took it.

On the topic of Harrenhall *and in support of the assassination theory* if the place carries a curse, Roose Bolton was Lord of Harrenhall too- so presumably he's going to come to a sticky end eventually.

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ADWD is gonna be awesome! This chapter just got me even more excited for it to come out. I can't wait!

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Harrion was captured at Duskendale, actually, after Roose gave him and Glover orders to attack it and claimed those orders were from Robb. It seems probable that he then tipped off the Lannisters regarding this attack, which is why Tarly and Clegane were perfectly placed to crush them. Glover and Karstark were both captured. Glover, I believe, was exchanged for Martyn Lannister, but I believe Harrion remains a captive in Maidenpool.

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[quote name='Ran' post='1328409' date='Apr 24 2008, 14.00']Harrion remains a captive in Maidenpool.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure he's listed as such in AFFC Appx. Also Ser Halman Tallhart was killed there with them.

Maia. Maybe sometime durring AFFC Tarly was nice enough to send Harrion along to Roose at the Twins, where he'd be a more valuable captive, but there's evidence. Edited by cybroleach

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Thanks [b]Bronn[/b] for this in-depth synopsis of the chapter.

One thing that I find particularly interesting, which hasn't been discussed yet, is that one of the Lords asks Ramsay why they brought Theon before them when they were eating. If Ramsay wanted Theon to help him to bring back the bride then why not just say to Theon privately? I think that Ramsay is sending a very clear message to both of the lords that this (Theon) is the fate which befalls those who cross him... which very interestingly links back to a point made early in this thread that Ramsay wants to use Theon to 'scare' the Ironborn in Moat Cailin.

My gut feeling is that TFM's timeline is correct.

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[quote name='Maia' post='1328206' date='Apr 24 2008, 18.52']And Reek was Ramsey's childhood companion? Ugh... where did Bolton have him raised again?

About Karstarks not liking Boltons and Arnulf throwing them for Stannis... I am not sure. Clearly, the things aren't so fairy-tale-ish anymore and it seems to me that while Arnulf may not go as far as kinslaying, he'd be pleased with anybody who clears his way to lordship(s). And Bolton has Harrion, who is the rightful Lord Karstark and if Arnulf throws in with Stannis, then Harrion could be played against him. OTOH, siding with the Boltons could result in quiet removal of Harrion. Winterfell is all very nice, but it is a burnt-out ruin and trying to claim the North will be difficult. A bird in hand and all that.[/quote]

I seem to recall that Ramsay lived with his mum until Domeric died, then Roose brought him to the Dreadfort

Didn't Jon make a big stink about the how Northmen prefer another Northmen as their leige to Stannis when he's trying to convince Stannis why Wildlings and southron Lords wont make Stannis popular. If so, Arnulf might prefer Bolton to Stannis.
It really comes down to what kind of person Arnulf is and what info he has on Harrion's whereabouts. Is he merely trying to keep his House alive as the highest ranking Karstark around or is he making a grab for personal power?

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[quote name='grinachu' post='1328282' date='Apr 24 2008, 13.44']I doubt Bolton took much interest in his bastard until his bastard proved himself useful.[/quote]


Yet Ramsey has the training that allows him to play a lord when it is required. He must have been raised by some low-level nobles or gentry.

[quote]Were things ever fairytalish in ASOIAF?[/quote]

Certain aspects were - i.e. family members being totally loyal to the ruling lord and never contesting his power, for instance. The very strong kinslaying taboo explains much lower levels of bloodbaths within the noble families (than in RL), but not this single-mindness of the earlier books.

[quote]Are you sure Bolton has Harrion? I thought Harrion's present whereabouts were unknown.[/quote]

Folks rightly pointed out that Harrion is currently a prisoner of the Lannisters. However, as Bolton is himself in league with the Lannisters, I think that he could obtain and use Harrion against Arnulf if the latter really went over to Stannis. On the flip-side, he could ensure that Harrion never returns to the North.
And of course Stannis's dubious new religion, being a southener and his alliance with the wildlings would all speak against him where many northern lords are concerned.

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Single mindedness of the "earlier books"-plural is excessive, it should be said. The Freys and their really dysfunctional family, and Theon's references to uncles killing nephews and what not, are from ACoK. For that matter, the Dance of the Dragons is mentioned right in the first novel.

I assume GRRM's particular idea here is that when the realm is functioning more-or-less smoothly, there's too much power in the hands of lords -- who have equally strong and unified allies and superiors -- for troublesome kinsmen to cause serious problems. While the court at King's Landing was fairly sickly and rotting, the great magnates weren't really seeing a problem, nor were their vassals.

Now everything's disturbed and screwed up, and people are seeing a chance to better themselves and grab what they can while it's there for the having because the institutions that enforced order are weak and distracted. Makes sense, really. I expect things were pretty bothersome in, say, France during the Hundred Years Wars'. They certainly were in England during the Wars of the Roses. Edited by Ran

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[quote name='alsy' post='1328395' date='Apr 25 2008, 06.17']ADWD is gonna be awesome! This chapter just got me even more excited for it to come out. I can't wait![/quote]
I agree, although I frequently find myself wondering how GRRM will manage to tie up all the currenty storylines in 3 (2.5) more books. It seems to me like he just keeps introducing more and more while making slow progress on the others.

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[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1327660' date='Apr 24 2008, 02.29'][i]He enters The Bastard sits in his fathers chair drinking from his father's cup, sharing the table with two older men looking like lords. One is gaunt with a white beard, wearing a jerkin of ragged, dirty bearskin, a byrnie even at the table. The second is thin also, but twisted, his eyes grey, his teeth yellow and his forked beard tangled and white. He's bald, but his cloak is fine and fastened with a silver clasp in the shape of a starburst.

The second lord points out he smells like stale vomit and nightsoil and wonders why Ramsay inflicts him upon them whilst they eat. The first lord looks closely and notes that despite the weight loss and hair color, he is no serving man. The second lord then agrees and asks if it can be Stark's old ward, who always smiled.[/i][/quote]

It's interesting that the 'second lord' seems to know Theon based on such a personalized comment, yet Theon has no recolection of the man. Edited by cybroleach

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[quote name='cybroleach' post='1328548' date='Apr 24 2008, 17.22']It's interesting that the 'second lord' seems to know Theon based on such a personalized comment, yet Theon has no recolection of the man.[/quote]

I don't know that the second lord necessarily knows him. He probably knows (as Robb and many of his bannermen themselves learned) that Ramsay had Theon in his dungeons, and then when presented with a man who still retained some noble bearing yet looks like shit, he comes to the logical conclusion. It's entirely possible that Theon went with Ned and the Stark family to Karhold once or twice--hence the "always smiling" comment, although that could be from reptutation--but that doesn't mean that Arnolf would know Theon without the contextual clues.

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[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1328578' date='Apr 24 2008, 18.08']It's entirely possible that Theon went with Ned and the Stark family to Karhold once or twice--hence the "always smiling" comment, although that could be from reptutation--but that doesn't mean that Arnolf would know Theon without the contextual clues.[/quote]

Having a rep of always smiling? Is a little thin, i think which makes it more likely that he did travel to Karhold or Arnolf(since we're assuming it's him) was at some feast with Lord Rickard at Winterfell, but wouldn't you expect an old bald hunchback noble to stick out in Theon's mind.

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[quote name='cybroleach' post='1328587' date='Apr 24 2008, 18.15']Having a rep of always smiling? Is a little thin, i think which makes it more likely that he did travel to Karhold or Arnolf(since we're assuming it's him) was at some feast with Lord Rickard at Winterfell, but wouldn't you expect an old bald hunchback noble to stick out in Theon's mind.[/quote]

After months of torture, when he's having trouble remembering his own name and figuring out what year it's supposed to be? No, I would not.

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[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1328590' date='Apr 24 2008, 15.18']After months of torture, when he's having trouble remembering his own name and figuring out what year it's supposed to be? No, I would not.[/quote]

Agreed - Not to mention the starvation and having the infections of his assorted digits rot off.

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