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Ran

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] "New" POV 1 - Spoilers for ADwD

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[quote name='Maia' post='1328508' date='Apr 24 2008, 21.36']Yet Ramsey has the training that allows him to play a lord when it is required. He must have been raised by some low-level nobles or gentry.



Certain aspects were - i.e. family members being totally loyal to the ruling lord and never contesting his power, for instance. The very strong kinslaying taboo explains much lower levels of bloodbaths within the noble families (than in RL), but not this single-mindness of the earlier books.



Folks rightly pointed out that Harrion is currently a prisoner of the Lannisters. However, as Bolton is himself in league with the Lannisters, I think that he could obtain and use Harrion against Arnulf if the latter really went over to Stannis. On the flip-side, he could ensure that Harrion never returns to the North.
And of course Stannis's dubious new religion, being a southener and his alliance with the wildlings would all speak against him where many northern lords are concerned.[/quote]

my understanding is that all prisoners belong to the Crown, didn't Jaime say as much in Harrenhall? If that's the attitude the Crown is taking, Harrion might well be kept by Lannisters and used as a bargaining chip with Bolton. However Tarly is marching back to KL and I doubt he's taking Harrion with him, so in theory Bolton could just go to Maidenpool and pick Harrion up. We'll see.

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In ACoK it's mentioned by Arya that Harrion was the captive of a hedge knight who hoped to make himself rich with his ransom, whereas Ser Wylis Manderly was explicitly Tywin's prisoner.

We don't really know to whom Harrion is considered a prisoner -- the crown directly (if Tarly imprisoned him in the king's name), or Tarly himself, or some random knight, but in any case, if the crown needs to use him as a bargaining chip, they can expect to be able to arrange it anyways.

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[quote name='Ran' post='1329030' date='Apr 24 2008, 22.59']In ACoK it's mentioned by Arya that Harrion was the captive of a hedge knight who hoped to make himself rich with his ransom, whereas Ser Wylis Manderly was explicitly Tywin's prisoner.

We don't really know to whom Harrion is considered a prisoner -- the crown directly (if Tarly imprisoned him in the king's name), or Tarly himself, or some random knight, but in any case, if the crown needs to use him as a bargaining chip, they can expect to be able to arrange it anyways.[/quote]

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Sorry for the tangent, but to add how reek becomes theon again... I remember the black fish telling jaime that Kat never trusted theon or Jon. At the time I thought it was that jon does something that seems like treachery, but now I wonder if reek ends up at the wall (perhaps via stannis) and Jon help him out. I also seem to remember that people generally thought the black fish was headed to the wall at the end of feast to check it out.

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[quote name='jipijapa' post='1329624' date='Apr 25 2008, 13.37']I also seem to remember that people generally thought the black fish was headed to the wall at the end of feast to check it out.[/quote]

I don't think that's true, actually. The general opinion seems to be that the Blackfish will hook up with Lady Stoneheart and her lovable band of vigilantes. After all, if Blackfish wanted to go to the Wall, he could have surrendered with the castle rather than escaping. (I guess one could argue that he expected the Lannisters to renege somehow and execute him, but it's not clear why he alone of the garrison would reach that conclusion while Robin Ryger and Desmond Grell--who have no particular reason to trust the Lannisters more--clearly didn't.)

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[quote name='jipijapa' post='1329624' date='Apr 25 2008, 19.37']Sorry for the tangent, but to add how reek becomes theon again... I remember the black fish telling jaime that Kat never trusted theon or Jon. At the time I thought it was that jon does something that seems like treachery, but now I wonder if reek ends up at the wall (perhaps via stannis) and Jon help him out. I also seem to remember that people generally thought the black fish was headed to the wall at the end of feast to check it out.[/quote]

I don't buy that, sorry jipijapa. In ASOIAF, chances once missed, rarely come again. Theon had his chance to take the black when Maester Luwin offered it to him, and he refused. As for the Blackfish, while it may be that he doesn't trust Theon Turncloak now (who does?) I think he's most likely to turn up in the North and try to rally lords loyal to Robb, and that's where the distrust he harbours for Jon Snow might be significant.

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You guys are probably right. I was thinking the would be kings (and queen) would be at the wall by the end of dance. But I guess that was more hope than fact based. I'm not sure why I thought the blackfish was going to the wall either. Does anyone know what Jon did to make the blackfish lump him in context with theon?

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Well, I think it really comes down to the fact that Jon had the temerity to exist. Thus, Catelyn didn't like him and infuenced the Blackfish's opinion of him. Also, in Westeros culture bastards are simply bad because they're bastards. No other justification is really needed ;)

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It seemed a little more than that, I don't have my books on hand, but the statement (towards the the end of feast) was when the blackfish was talking to jaime about theon and he said cat didn't trust theon or Jon, and it turned out she was right about both. That's a pretty harsh statement to attribute to general bastard dislike. At the time it struck me as something specific Jon did.

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I feel bad that the Blackfish never met Jon, else he would feel different.

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[quote name='Brady' post='1330060' date='Apr 25 2008, 17.16']Yeah, the Blackfish suspected (wrongly) that Jon had sold out to the Lannisters in order to get elevated to Lord Commader.[/quote]
This is not necessarily correct. The Blackfish implied to Jamie that was the case but we don't know if he really believes it. As Blackfish is a master tactician, and as decepetion is a principle of war, we shoulkd consider that he was misdirecting Jamie as to his intentions.

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I think Theon will make his way to the wall. Theon's purpose is probably more than a little more work for the Boltons. Also, if he shows up at the Wall it will be interesting to see what Jon does with him. Would his hatred be tempered a little after seeing Theon's current state? Also, what would Jon do when he learns that Bran and Rickon live? (I think if Theon told him that they weren't killed, he would probably believe him-it would explain Summer saving him from the wildings).

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[quote name='Atreides' post='1330817' date='Apr 26 2008, 16.13']I think Theon will make his way to the wall. Theon's purpose is probably more than a little more work for the Boltons. Also, if he shows up at the Wall it will be interesting to see what Jon does with him. Would his hatred be tempered a little after seeing Theon's current state? Also, what would Jon do when he learns that Bran and Rickon live? (I think if Theon told him that they weren't killed, he would probably believe him-it would explain Summer saving him from the wildings).[/quote]

Not a chance, IMO. Theon will be Asha's ticket to contest her nuncles He still has a part to play on the Iron Islands.

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Maybe both then? Because with Asha at Deepwood Motte I don't see how Theon would get to her. Where would he go is he escapes the Boltons except to the wall? Also, since according to the other spoilers Stannis finds Asha, they might both end up at the Wall for a time.

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in this state, i have to question if he even knows he let bran and rickon live...

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[quote name='Atreides' post='1330954' date='Apr 26 2008, 22.02']Maybe both then? Because with Asha at Deepwood Motte I don't see how Theon would get to her. Where would he go is he escapes the Boltons except to the wall? Also, since according to the other spoilers Stannis finds Asha, they might both end up at the Wall for a time.[/quote]

Well, clearly he hasn't reached her by her first chapter, and that's well in ADWD; still, though, I think there's going to be a lot of Roose and Ramsay before he leaves their company.

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[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1330935' date='Apr 26 2008, 22.19']Not a chance, IMO. Theon will be Asha's ticket to contest her nuncles He still has a part to play on the Iron Islands.[/quote]

I was never a fan of this theory and now I think that it is highly unlikely. If the Ironborn weren't impressed with Theon as he was, they won't be ready to accept him now that he is a broken wreck. He can't even provide an acceptable facade anymore. And it is past time for GRRM to kill a few more POVs, or he'll need to split the next volume also. If Asha survives ADwD and gets another chance at the Iron Islands, then she'll have to look for a suitable husband and make their combined clout count.

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[quote name='Maia' post='1331292' date='Apr 27 2008, 10.34']I was never a fan of this theory and now I think that it is highly unlikely. If the Ironborn weren't impressed with Theon as he was, they won't be ready to accept him now that he is a broken wreck. He can't even provide an acceptable facade anymore. And it is past time for GRRM to kill a few more POVs, or he'll need to split the next volume also. If Asha survives ADwD and gets another chance at the Iron Islands, then she'll have to look for a suitable husband and make their combined clout count.[/quote]

Their low regard stems from a couple of sources. One, he's never done anything and two he doesn't really know their ways. Both are correctable.

I'd see the following as essential precursors.

1. Victarion must be out of the way.
2. Euron must have led the Ironborn into utter disaster
3. Theon needs to actually accomplish something martial - bonus points if he bails them out after his uncles screw up
4. He needs to learn to listen as well as his sister has - learning to listen to her is a first step

All seem at least possible and 1, 2 and 4 seem almost unavoidable.

I also do not subscribe in the least to the notion that the only way for GRRM to abandon a POV is by killing that person off. At some point, POV characters will join up to the point that there is no compelling reason for the tale to be told from the eyes of any one of them. All GRRM needs to do is not write their POV any more - easy enough if several occupy the same region at the same time.

I can easily envision a scenario where Sam and Bran and Jon and Daenerys and Tyrion and maybe a few others are all together working toward a single task. There is no reason whatsoever that GRRM would have to tell the story from the eyes of each of them. He could use as many or as few as he wished.

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