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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] "New" POV 1 - Spoilers for ADwD

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[quote name='Maia' post='1331292' date='Apr 27 2008, 12.34']I was never a fan of this theory and now I think that it is highly unlikely. If the Ironborn weren't impressed with Theon as he was, they won't be ready to accept him now that he is a broken wreck. He can't even provide an acceptable facade anymore. And it is past time for GRRM to kill a few more POVs, or he'll need to split the next volume also. If Asha survives ADwD and gets another chance at the Iron Islands, then she'll have to look for a suitable husband and make their combined clout count.[/quote]

I kick the idea around that Asha will marry Stannis.

To what end, I don't really know, of course. Stan will need to get rid of his Florent wife, obviously, and Asha will need to divorce her sealion.

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[quote name='urizen' post='1321473' date='Apr 20 2008, 07.14']Ramsay might try to do in dear old dad if he gets the chance. Before reading the spoiler chapters, especially the Asha chapter, I had the idea that Ramsay would take out Roose at Moat Caillin, either by luring Roose to attack the fortified Ironborn without any support from Ramsay or take Moat Caillin only to rain death upon Roose as he tries to pass.[/quote]


Ramsay would have to be sneakier than that in killing Roose. He needs the men his father leads. Plus Roose really isn't the lead from the front type.

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If Ramsay can get Theon to kill Roose - say, in an attempted escape - that's as sneaky as he needs to be.

Bronn, good points all. :)

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Guest Other-in-law
A general observation about Ramsay...even though he is definitely cunning, he strikes me as extremely reckless. The Hornwood abduction/murder lead directly to him getting hunted down, and he himself admitted that it was really just a stroke of luck that he survived his arrest as reek, and that Theon liberated him from the dungeons of Winterfell. He could just as easily have been summarily executed by Rodrick Cassel, or stayed in the dungeons for several years.

Compare that to Roose who is very careful to keep his fingerprints off of his sabotage of Robb's war effort, and is even willing to abandon his scheme as recently as his dinner with Jaime. He's extremely cautious and careful, even while daring the most stunning betrayal. So I'm doubtful of Ramsay's ability to successfully outwit his father, but who knows? Maybe some freakish luck will favour him again.

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About the Ironborn accepting Theon in his current state: it's not likely, unless he goes full circle and actually fulfills the Ironborn saying "What is dead can never die, but rises again, harder and stronger." If he recovers his health and does something major/is involved in winning some battles he might gain some respect, even if he looks like he's older than his uncles.

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[quote name='jipijapa' post='1329977' date='Apr 25 2008, 17.25']It seemed a little more than that, I don't have my books on hand, but the statement (towards the the end of feast) was when the blackfish was talking to jaime about theon and he said cat didn't trust theon or Jon, and it turned out she was right about both. That's a pretty harsh statement to attribute to general bastard dislike. At the time it struck me as something specific Jon did.[/quote]
Oh, I don't know. When someone is already negatively predisposed toward someone else then they will see anything that person does in a more negative light, right? I mean, Catelyn is a great example of this. From the time that she utters those fateful words "it should have been you, Jon" many readers view any- and everything she does as being stupid and a mistake ;)

Although I do really like the theory that the Blackfish was just intentionally misleading Jaime and I hope that turns out to be the case I'm not at all sure Martin would go that route. No, I think the differences between Blackfish and Jon may be resolved but I think it would be more from the Blackfish simply changing his opinion of Jon after getting to know him a little better.

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[quote name='Prince of the North' post='1332188' date='Apr 28 2008, 18.05']Oh, I don't know. When someone is already negatively predisposed toward someone else then they will see anything that person does in a more negative light, right? I mean, Catelyn is a great example of this. From the time that she utters those fateful words "it should have been you, Jon" many readers view any- and everything she does as being stupid and a mistake ;)

Although I do really like the theory that the Blackfish was just intentionally misleading Jaime and I hope that turns out to be the case I'm not at all sure Martin would go that route. No, I think the differences between Blackfish and Jon may be resolved but I think it would be more from the Blackfish simply changing his opinion of Jon after getting to know him a little better.[/quote]

Even if there is such a resolution, it is not likely to come without a cost in terms of distrust of Jon on the Blackfish's part and perhaps the Blackfish siding with the Bolton's who he thinks have Arya Stark. Remember the Blackfish is almost certainly going to be looking for Robb Stark's heirs in the North since his loyalty is owed now exclusively to the Direwolf.

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[quote name='grinachu' post='1333222' date='Apr 29 2008, 07.56']Even if there is such a resolution, it is not likely to come without a cost in terms of distrust of Jon on the Blackfish's part and perhaps the Blackfish siding with the Bolton's who he thinks have Arya Stark. Remember the Blackfish is almost certainly going to be looking for Robb Stark's heirs in the North since his loyalty is owed now exclusively to the Direwolf.[/quote]
Why? I thought his loyalty is to his lord and nephew Edmure, whom he has to free from the Lannisters. No time to go north IMO.

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[quote name='JoannaL' post='1333251' date='Apr 29 2008, 07.50']Why? I thought his loyalty is to his lord and nephew Edmure, whom he has to free from the Lannisters. No time to go north IMO.[/quote]

Well there's an old debate as to whether bannermen owe their loyalty to their immediate lord or their King. I think the Blackfish's primary loyalty despite being a Tully was to Robb and Catelyn, he flew the Direwolf of the Starks at Riverrun in AFFC. He returned to Riverrun with Catelyn as her man, albeit to visit his brother. He campaigned with Robb. In conversation with Jaime Lannister in AFFC he said "My king entrusted his queen to my keeping, and I swore to keep her safe" and refused to exchange Jeyne Westerling for Edmure Tully. His loyalty is to Robb and House Stark now.

I think (and mind you this is a subjective view) that when Edmure agreed to surrender Riverrun, the Blackfish saw his loyalty to Edmure as Lord Tully come to an end. Edmure's going to sit out the rest of the series in Casterly Rock until the last Great Council and the Blackfish is going to turn up (this an old trick of Martin's) somewhere we don't expect him, maybe with the Manderlys, maybe with the Mormonts, maybe even with Bronze Yohn Royce.

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I'm curious to know something. During the chapter did "Reek" at any time think back to his past as Theon by name or reference to anything Ironborn or Stark? I'm wondering not because I'm trying to confirm his identity as definitely Theon (I have no doubt it is Theon), but to understand how far gone his mind truly is.

Great summaries though, hopefully this is just a part of a larger chapter.

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[quote name='Bane the Other' post='1333567' date='Apr 29 2008, 15.15']I'm curious to know something. During the chapter did "Reek" at any time think back to his past as Theon by name or reference to anything Ironborn or Stark? I'm wondering not because I'm trying to confirm his identity as definitely Theon (I have no doubt it is Theon), but to understand how far gone his mind truly is.

Great summaries though, hopefully this is just a part of a larger chapter.[/quote]

he thinks of Arya as Arya Underfoot. I would say that his mind is pretty far gone, although he shows an impressive ability to reason (in the circumstances).

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[quote name='grinachu' post='1333222' date='Apr 29 2008, 00.56']Even if there is such a resolution, it is not likely to come without a cost in terms of distrust of Jon on the Blackfish's part and perhaps the Blackfish siding with the Bolton's who he thinks have Arya Stark. Remember the Blackfish is almost certainly going to be looking for Robb Stark's heirs in the North since his loyalty is owed now exclusively to the Direwolf.[/quote]
Oh, I completely agree! If it ever comes to it, Jon will have a challenging time of it to earn the Blackfish's trust or respect. However, there seem to be some scenarios in which Jon and the Blackfish would have some common enemies. From there who knows what might happen?

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Well I would not but all my eggs in the bucket that says the Blackfish believed everything that Cat told him. Sure that is what he told Jamie, but notice he did not say what Rob told him. I am pretty sure that the Blackfish knows of Rob's letter either from Rob directly (Possibly discussed it together) or from the assorted people that Rob made sign and carry the letter.

As was said earlier - even in AFfC the Blackfish was flying the Direwolf banner. That would normally be pointless at this point, UNLESS he knows SOMETHING! It is not impossible that he knows something about Bran or Rickon but it is very unlikely. We know that both Sansa and Arya are both unlikely. So that pretty much leaves Rob's letter about Jon as to the reason that Blackfish was being so stuborn.

Then again maybe Blackfish just likes lost causes --- but I prefer to think that he has a head on his shoulders and has a plan. Part of that plan was Jamie's misdirection.

All the loose ends seem to fit better this way.

However, if he goes to Jon and Jon refuses because of his committment to the NW, Blackfish could easily turn into one of those "smiling faces" that Mel was talking about.

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First post ever, so please go easy on me.
Just a thought about what purpose Ramsey has in mind for Theon;
Asha doesn't want him back, but the Damphair DOES. The Damphair thinks of himself in his youth as foolish and stupid, but then he died and rose again, harder and stronger. He also has a tremendous following on the Iron Islands. He might see a parallel between himself and Theon and try to champion him as Balon's rightful heir, and a godly man to sit the Seastone chair, as he hates Euron so much.

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[quote name='wvlr' post='1333986' date='Apr 29 2008, 13.32']As was said earlier - even in AFfC the Blackfish was flying the Direwolf banner. That would normally be pointless at this point, UNLESS he knows SOMETHING![/quote]

Not pointless at all. Why would the Blackfish take down the Direwolf banner, unless he was conceding defeat? As long as he's still resisting the Lannisters, concern for the morale of the garrison would lead him to keep flying the Stark banner.

Also, forgive me if I'm wrong, but Jaime doesn't think of it as weird, does he? And nobody else that I recall remarks on it either. If there was something odd in his flying of the Stark banner, I think GRRM would have signalled that to us. Edited by The Fat Man

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An alliance with the Seastone chair could solidify Roose and Ramsay's power in the North, or just Ramsay's own if he means to take Roose out.

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[quote name='Shepherd6' post='1334388' date='Apr 29 2008, 17.14']An alliance with the Seastone chair could solidify Roose and Ramsay's power in the North, or just Ramsay's own if he means to take Roose out.[/quote]

Possible, but I prefer the theory laid out in the Asha spoiler thread, about Asha and Stannis teaming up, at least temporarily, later on after the events of her chapter.

It just makes more sense to me because, for now at least, she and Stannis might both be interested in attacking the Dreadfort. She could help Stannis on the condition that she gets to keep Theon if he's alive, and then after her commitment is finished, go about using Theon as a puppet for taking the Seastone Chair/whatever.

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[quote name='Shepherd6' post='1334389' date='Apr 29 2008, 23.14']An alliance with the Seastone chair could solidify Roose and Ramsay's power in the North, or just Ramsay's own if he means to take Roose out.[/quote]

Ramsay vowed to drive the Greyjoys from the North (according to Roose Bolton in ASOS). Stannis and Ramsay are both striving to win over the northmen to their cause and they can't do that if they ally with the Ironborn who are hated in the North. I also think that this notion that Ramsay will try assassinate Roose is the wildest and craziest sort of speculation. I mean, I've indulged in that sort of speculation myself, but this just doesn't pass the smell test for me. It would be absolutely suicidal for Ramsay, especially when he's just recently been named heir and doesn't automatically command the loyalty of men like Steelshanks Walton.

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I was skimming through ACOK when I came across this curious passage which I had hitertho overlooked.

"Roose Bolton was seated by the hearth reading from a thick leatherbound book when she entered. "Light some candles," he commanded her as he turned a page. "It grows gloomy in here."
She placed the food at his elbow and did as he bid her, filling the room with flickering light and the scent of cloves. Bolton turned a few more pages with his finger, then closed the book and placed it carefully in the fire. He watched the flames consume it, pale eyes shining with reflected light." (ACOK- Arya POV)

Any idea on what the book is? It might be something to do with geneaologies and the parentage of Joffrey Baratheon, since Roose later hints to Jaime that he knows the truth, but it might be something else entirely. Either way I doubt the passage is there for no reason whatsoever, and that Roose burns the book is particularly significant since it implies that there is information there that he does not wish to share. At this point he has already decided to sabotage the Stark war effort, by sending Tallheart and Glover to Duskendale. So, any guesses?

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[quote name='grinachu' post='1337055' date='May 1 2008, 07.21']I was skimming through ACOK when I came across this curious passage which I had hitertho overlooked.

"Roose Bolton was seated by the hearth reading from a thick leatherbound book when she entered. "Light some candles," he commanded her as he turned a page. "It grows gloomy in here."
She placed the food at his elbow and did as he bid her, filling the room with flickering light and the scent of cloves. Bolton turned a few more pages with his finger, then closed the book and placed it carefully in the fire. He watched the flames consume it, pale eyes shining with reflected light." (ACOK- Arya POV)

Any idea on what the book is? It might be something to do with geneaologies and the parentage of Joffrey Baratheon, since Roose later hints to Jaime that he knows the truth, but it might be something else entirely. Either way I doubt the passage is there for no reason whatsoever, and that Roose burns the book is particularly significant since it implies that there is information there that he does not wish to share. At this point he has already decided to sabotage the Stark war effort, by sending Tallheart and Glover to Duskendale. So, any guesses?[/quote]

Wow. Nice pick. I never noticed that. Yeah why burn a book? Maybe it was from the Frey's with details on the red wedding. Maybe they responded to Roose in a book rather than by raven. Damn now I'm going to be thinking of this all day.

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