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VorianGR

Question about armies

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Sorry if this has been mentioned before. The levies, foot soldiers etc in an army of Westeros consists of every able male of age, or some "soldiers" that follow knights like men-at-arms?


For example Robb gathered about 12,000 men from the North, is that all men from holdfasts etc.??

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In the case of Robb, no, it's not every man. GRRM stated that Robb just raised what men he could relatively quickly, and didn't scrape the barrel, but rather the cream.

In the other, it's a question of....it depends, but I doubt a mass conscription would be complete, but there would be a mix of knights, men like Bronn, men who had been in fights before, and random peasants picked up who knows where, with the exact mixture varying.

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[quote name='Mister Manticore' post='1352872' date='May 13 2008, 08.17']In the case of Robb, no, it's not every man. GRRM stated that Robb just raised what men he could relatively quickly, and didn't scrape the barrel, but rather the cream.

In the other, it's a question of....it depends, but I doubt a mass conscription would be complete, but there would be a mix of knights, men like Bronn, men who had been in fights before, and random peasants picked up who knows where, with the exact mixture varying.[/quote]


What about Renly? He had 60,000 foot which is too much, unless he took everybody.

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[quote]What about Renly? He had 60,000 foot which is too much, unless he took everybody.[/quote]

We don't know. We have almost zero info about Renly's (or southern) infantry, just about the knights. But those were the soldiers from both Reach and Stormlands. I think at least 1/3 or them were from Stormlands. And Reach is the most populous area in realm so I don't think it is that unlikely.

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The Reach has the greatest population, and the most available manpower, of any of the Seven Kingdoms -- and has the resources and logistical capacity to support great masses of them in the field all at once. It's been speculated that the full army of the Reach would number anywhere from 80,000 to over 100,000.

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if it realy means raising every able man (like WW2 mobilistion) then one could raise a huge host of kings landing or oldtown

but it still superising that robb couldn't raise more then 20,000 from a big place liek the north (not that populated but I sitll think an area like that could hold a 40k host)
the riverland for a populated area that it is couldnt gather one bigger then 20k aswell but a desolated desert like dorne could raise 50k...odd

from the book it implied the size of each region host:
the north-20k
riverland-15k-20k (later on turned to 12k)
the westland-35k +
the stormlands-unknown thought to be the size of 30k (seeing the size of renly army and later on stannis host)
the reach-up to 80k (could be even higher)
dorne-50k
the vale-unknown I would assume around 30k

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The North can raise more than that, but because it's so large it takes a very long time to gather it all together. The riverlands certainly can raise more than 20,000, but at the time of the war they've been smashed up and raided and split apart.

Dorne is said to be able to raise 50,000 in ACoK, but we learn in AFfC that this is exaggerated -- the Dornish allow their enemies to believe they have more strength than they really do. 20-25k seems likelier for them.

The westerlands all together appears capable of raising at least 50k.

The Stormlands is actually probably nearer the 20k-25k mark. George does not think much of their military potential.

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[quote name='hnv' post='1384831' date='Jun 5 2008, 12.31']if it realy means raising every able man (like WW2 mobilistion) then one could raise a huge host of kings landing or oldtown[/quote]
Precisely.

There was 500 000 souls in King´s Landing when Oberyn arrived. This number included the armies of Tyrell and Lannister, but those were less than 100 000 combined.

This leaves us with more than 400 000 souls present before Blackwater.

Some of those had been refugees. But many of them would have been adult men. Smallfolk who fled the Riverlands were not otherwise busy (they could not farm as refugees!) and many ordinary residents, artisans and traders would likewise have become unemployed with disruption of trade. Which makes it odd how Cersei and Tyrion were only able to find, with a great effort, 4000 recruits for Gold Cloaks, rather than 40 000.

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[quote name='Jaak' post='1388466' date='Jun 8 2008, 00.30']Precisely.

There was 500 000 souls in King´s Landing when Oberyn arrived. This number included the armies of Tyrell and Lannister, but those were less than 100 000 combined.

This leaves us with more than 400 000 souls present before Blackwater.

Some of those had been refugees. But many of them would have been adult men. Smallfolk who fled the Riverlands were not otherwise busy (they could not farm as refugees!) and many ordinary residents, artisans and traders would likewise have become unemployed with disruption of trade. Which makes it odd how Cersei and Tyrion were only able to find, with a great effort, 4000 recruits for Gold Cloaks, rather than 40 000.[/quote]
erhmmm but coming to think about it they couldn't arm a 40k host...giving a sword to everyoen is a costly deal +training and sh*t maby 4000 was the best cersei and tyrion could have got so they could logisticaly support it

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[quote name='Jaak' post='1388466' date='Jun 8 2008, 00.30']Some of those had been refugees. But many of them would have been adult men. Smallfolk who fled the Riverlands were not otherwise busy (they could not farm as refugees!) and many ordinary residents, artisans and traders would likewise have become unemployed with disruption of trade. Which makes it odd how Cersei and Tyrion were only able to find, with a great effort, 4000 recruits for Gold Cloaks, rather than 40 000.[/quote]

Not every man fits to become a guardsman. He must be young body able man with some familiarity with arms. Most of smallfolk and refuges do not qualify for it. So 4000 looks like a very realistic number.

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With how many men the Reach have you would think they would just claim all of Westeros single handly....I mean seriously...they also have the second biggest navy right under the Ironmen and all the Ironmen have is a navy....it is just amazing...the Reach is a little to powerful if you think about it.

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It's like wondering why France never conquered Italy, despite it being broken up into rival city-states for a long while, I think. Eventually people band together. The kings of the Reach had potential enemies on five sides -- the ironmen in the sea, the Kings of the Rock north of them, the Kings of the Trident northeast of them, the stormlords east of them, and the Dornish south of them. Some of these likely proved rather impossible to defeat directly -- Dorne repeatedly threw back invaders, the Lannisters were very powerful in their own right -- and others of these may have been protected by the fact that when the Gardners attacked them, someone else would attack the Gardners in turn.

This is exactly what we're told happened at one point in the past, in "The Sworn Sword". The king went fighting east, the King of the Rock invaded.

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[quote name='Ran Mutu' post='1384847' date='Jun 5 2008, 05.56']The Stormlands is actually probably nearer the 20k-25k mark. George does not think much of their military potential.[/quote]

GRRM doesn't think much of the Stormlands' military potential? Where has he said that? (I don't doubt your word, Ran, I'm just curious as to where he mentioned it.)

And 20-25k men... That would mean that Renly raised all/very nearly all of the Stormlands' available figthing men in his bid for the throne, leaving his lands virtually undefended against other threats. Would he really do that? I mean, I know he was overconfident and took Dorne's allegiance for granted, but still...

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See [url="http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Strength_of_the_Regions/"]here[/url]. My figure is speculative, I admit, but the way George dismisses the stormlands suggests it's not up there with the big boys. If Renly took, say, 15k of the stormlords and left 10k behind, that would make sense to me. The other 65k in his army would then come from the Tyrells, who kept 15-20k in reserve (10k at Highgarden, we're told).

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It should be noted that GRRM has also suggested that Cape Wrath, the rainwood, and the kingswood are [i]"fertile enough"[/i] and that the marcher lords have a strong martial tradition -- indicating the superior quality of their troops -- when confronted with the question how the Stormlands could compare with other regions.

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Yes, I had forgotten mentioning the Marchers. They're battle-hardened sorts, and they have powerful castles which were doubtless the main line of defense against invasions from the Reach.

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Regarding the Reach- I saw somewhere that White Harbour is considered to be the fifth most populous town (Behind KL, Oldtown, Lannisport and Gulltown).

I always figured there were several more highly populated cities in the Reach, including Highgarden.

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[quote name='Sloanzilla' post='1587293' date='Nov 13 2008, 04.30']Regarding the Reach- I saw somewhere that White Harbour is considered to be the fifth most populous town (Behind KL, Oldtown, Lannisport and Gulltown).

I always figured there were several more highly populated cities in the Reach, including Highgarden.[/quote]
Well, note the lack of major cities in very many places where one might expect them. Winterfell is purely a winter town. No major town at Riverrun, or anywhere in Riverlands. No major town at Storm´s End, or anywhere in Stormlands. There is a town at Sunspear, but it is behind White Harbour. No major town at Moon Gate.

It makes sense that the second cities of Reach, including Highgarden, are all minor.

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there are some town mentioned that are situated in the reach
its likely most of the reach population live in big towns (unlike dense small villages in the riverlands)

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Highgarden appears to be only a castle, not a city, although on Ted Nasmith's picture we are just seeing the castle. But if there were a city aroung the castle we should at least get signs of it on the picture.

As the Reach is the most-populated part of Westeros it's most likely that it took plenty of time until all the Reach swore fealty to the Gardener King. The Hightowers once were Kings in their own right, and one might think that there should be other families with a similar history. The Florents were heavily intermarried with the Gardeners. Maybe because they were a royal House. And there are the Redwynes on the Arbor. Back in ancient times the Arbor most likely was independent. And there must be a reason why the Manderlys had to flee their lands at the shore of the Mander.

So I assume that the Gardner Kings could only fully rely on the allegiance of all the Reach during the last centuries before the Conquest.

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