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Gampie

Succession issues - input needed

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Alright, like I have said earlier ("I might post about this") I now present you with some choices that must be made for the mod.

So, the issue at hand are the family trees and the selection of the faction leaders and heirs.

Before you can understand what's going on you first need to know these rules which I've learned playing M2TW:

[b]1) Faction leaders and faction heirs can only be males.
2) When a faction heir dies, a new faction heir is immediately selected from the family males.
3) [i]Normally [/i]the eldest son of the faction leader will be selected as the faction heir.
4) Players cannot select the faction leaders and faction heirs themselves. The game does that for you.
5) I can mod the game to determine the [u]starting [/u]faction leader and faction heir.
6) If there are no family members left the game will select one of the generals as the new faction heir*
7) Male family members appear on the campaign map when they have reached the age of 16 (=mature).**
8) Only when a male family member has matured can he be elected as faction heir or become faction leader.
9) If there are no male family members the faction dies and you lose the game at once.
10) If a faction leader has a faction heir who is [i]not [/i]in his family tree and the faction leader dies then his family tree will disappear. Instead the family tree of the faction heir (now leader) will appear and become the new bloodline (thus effectively making the old bloodline insignificant).
11) A character can have a maximum of 4 children.
[/b]

*at least at the start of the campaign, don't know if it happens later on
** this variable can be modded

Found a bug: When a family member starts with a dead wife he can still make children with her! Tywin Lannister starts the game with a dead wife but to my astonishment I saw that he created 3 children with his dead (!) wife when he was in the end of his fifties! This is an outrage! I have now given him traits like 'lame in loin' and 'wife is infertile' to bestow on him massive infertility penalties. This is not according to the books because Tywin was not impotent or infertile but I don't want him to get more kids. So you should just disregard those traits when you play the mod. :-P


What's the problem now? As you might know several factions have enormous succession issues. Let's take a look:

[b]Stark[/b]
Stark starts with:
Robb: faction leader and mature (16 years)
Bran: minor
Rickon: minor

And several non-family related generals. According to rule #6 stated above the game will select the first general it finds in the descr_strat.txt as the faction heir (so I can modify who it choses). This selection cannot be disabled. Currently Jon Umber is the first general in line so... he is Robb's faction heir. Do you understand my predicament?

This means that:
- If Robb dies before Jon Umber, the Stark bloodline will become a non-family general group (rule #10). Bran and Rickon will be generals while Jon Umber will be the faction leader. If Jon has sons they will become his heirs. However if Jon does not have relatives on the moment he assumes leadership the game will select one of the other generals as faction heir. I do not know which general the game will chose. Could be Bran Stark (if he has matured) or Roose Bolton (lol). I should test this.
- If Jon Umber dies before Robb (most likely because he's older) the eldest son of Robb will be selected as faction heir. If Robb does not have sons Bran (who should have matured by then) will be heir.

An alternative would be:
- Bran, against the lore of the books, is elevated to the age of 16 and assigned as faction heir. This would cement the Stark line. Jon Umber would be a random general and would (normally) not be able to get into the Stark line. (You could marry one of the Stark princesses to him, haha). Problem is that: 1) Bran would be much older than in the books and 2) Robb's sons would not succeed him but his brother would.

What do you think?

[b]Joffrey[/b]

Very similar situation to House Stark. They start with:
Joffrey: faction leader and mature
Tommen: minor

I have yet to give some extra generals to Joffrey but Gyles Rosby is already in. This means that currently Gyles Rosby is a 'prince' and heir to the Iron Throne. You immediately see that this is not what we like eh.
Tommen could be made 16 years old just like Bran. The (dis)advantages would be the same.

[b]Renly[/b]

Renly starts with:
Renly: faction leader and 21 years old (has a fertile wife so lot of potentials to make kids)

Renly's situation is even worse because he has no brothers in his family trees and no kids. Currently one of Renly's generals is a 'prince'. What to do with this?
My own solution would be to anticipate the death of the faction heir. Renly, being 21 still has a long life ahead of him (if he stays out of battles and away from Melisandre, hehe). He will surely either adopt many generals or make his wife oft pregnant. He has roughly 40-50 years before he will die of old age. So if I assign a faction heir who is older than Renly he will most likely die before him and then Renly's offspring will be next in line of succession.

[b]Stannis[/b]

Stannis starts with:
Stannis: faction leader and 36 years old (has an unattractive wife, low fertility)

Stannis' situation is the worst one. He is in the same predicament as Renly but with added disadvantages like a low fertility and a higher age plus already one child slot has been taken by Shireen, a female and not fit to succeed him.

Axell Florent will be the heir of Stannis as it stands now. I don't recall how old he is.

[b]Arryn[/b]

Arryn starts with:
Robert: faction leader and mature (he is older than in the books)
Harrold Hardyng: faction heir and mature

Harrold is not in Robert's family tree so rule #10 applies. This could mean that the Hardyngs can rule the Vale. (If you want to, you can send Robert on a suicide attack and then have the Hardyng family line take over House Arryn). I'm not displeased with the current state of affairs here. Robert will likely outlive Harrold by a small margin so his sons will continue the bloodline.

[b]Tully[/b]

Tully starts with:
Edmure: faction leader and mature
Brynden: faction heir and mature (20 years older than Edmure)

This is similar to Arryn with the difference that the Tully's are much more older. Brynden will likely die before Edmure.

[b]Greyjoy, Lannister, Tyrell, Martell[/b]

No succession problems here.


Any input is appreciated. :)

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Renly would probably need rather similar penalties to Tywin. He might have managed to bring himself about to breeding, but probably not with any great vigor or regularity.

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Ah, I didn't know that. If I recall correctly he boasted that he would get Margaery conceived within a year. I wasn't aware that it was just empty bragging.

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I wouldn't say it was necessarily empty bragging. But he was gay, he was uninterested in women (Arianne tried to seduce him, and blamed his puzzlement and lack of response on her being young, rather than the fact that he just wasn't keen), and maybe he'd manage it the once, or twice, but who's to say he'd warm her bed regularly and maximize the odds of turning out heirs?

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[quote name='Ran' post='1356613' date='May 15 2008, 11.06']I wouldn't say it was necessarily empty bragging. But he was gay, he was uninterested in women (Arianne tried to seduce him, and blamed his puzzlement and lack of response on her being young, rather than the fact that he just wasn't keen), and maybe he'd manage it the once, or twice, but who's to say he'd warm her bed regularly and maximize the odds of turning out heirs?[/quote]

Right, but Tywin's infertility was to make sure his wife stayed dead; making Renly infertile would only exacerbate the succession issues, rather than help them at all. Perhaps this is a time when canon must take second place to game play? (like making Robb and Joffrey both be 16...)

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[quote name='Minchandre' post='1356884' date='May 15 2008, 14.34']Right, but Tywin's infertility was to make sure his wife stayed dead; making Renly infertile would only exacerbate the succession issues, rather than help them at all. Perhaps this is a time when canon must take second place to game play? (like making Robb and Joffrey both be 16...)[/quote]

Yeah, as far as the age goes, it wouldn't be too bad to have Bran and Tommen at least closer to the required age. It would not match the books exactly, but would make the game play a little smoother.

Well whatever happens this will be a sweet mod. :drool:

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Well, the succession issues are surely always going to be there with Renly.

Also, I gathered that 'Lame in the Loins' only reduced the chances of reproduction, not made it impossible to reproduce.

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[quote name='Ran' post='1357016' date='May 15 2008, 13.44']Well, the succession issues are surely always going to be there with Renly.

Also, I gathered that 'Lame in the Loins' only reduced the chances of reproduction, not made it impossible to reproduce.[/quote]
Combining maximum male infertility with maximum female infertility makes it nigh impossible to reproduce. The only time I've ever seen it in game, a general who got married at 16 died naturally at over 60 without any children. I wouldn't worry about it in Tywin's last few years of life. Although I have to wonder at this bug, considering the fact that in the M2 Grand Campaign, at least 2 or 3 faction leaders start with dead wives... I wonder what's going on with that?

Stark, Joffrey, Renly and Stannis are the only factions that seem to have major succession issues. I really wish there was some way to make it so that if either dies without children, his faction joins the other brother, but it seems virtually impossible to do (making an event that does it the instant one dies is a lot easier, but also makes the scope of the game very limited...). I'm not sure what to do here.

For The Starks and Joffrey, it's a bit easier. It might be best, the way the game works, to have the "coming of age" happen at 14 rather than 16 and raise both children to 14. It does go against the novels, (their ages, it's well documented that children in Westeros are fully expected to be able to fight (and often marry) at 14), but it's the only way I can see to not totally screw up the game design.

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I'd put other generals rather than Orthon Merryweather (would be like seeing Petyr leading a charge), he is more a politician than a warrior. Westernlands and those surrounding Kingslanging are plenty of good, suitable generals.

I support the idea of lowering the age threshold. It would work prety well for Robb (even more if you put him already married with the little Westerling) and Joffrey (that way, he has Tommen and even Jaime to inherit his throne). I don't remember it very well... but wasn't Jeyne pregnant by the time of the Red Wedding? I think his Spicer mother forced her to drink Moon Tea (or wathever it is called in English). If so, Robb could start with a 0 years old son.

Renly: he surrounded himself with lots of knights in the novels. In this case I'd ignore his sexual tastes and boost his fertility (or his wife's). So, this faction could get along with heirs (becoming mature at 14) and adopted members.

Arryns: I see no problem with Harry ruling the Vale... that's what is gonna happen in the novels if nobody stops Petyr. I mean, he's called "the Heir" for some reason.

Tully: again, I'd ignore he is not married (at least by the time Renly was alive) and would give him a wife with fertility boosting traits. This way, and being Brynden older, his bloodline could survive if he doesn't die at the battlefield.

Stannis: obscure future for this one. I know this is an stupid and inaccurate idea, but what about making Edric Storm (Robert's first bastard) his heir?

---------
All those problems could be halted if a "main bloodline" could be chosen. So, when this main bloodline lacks a mature heir, another ones takes over until it has one. Example: "Robb Stark (owns the main bloodline) has a heir (age 8), and his brother Brandon is 18 (mature). Robb dies, but his heir isn't able to inherit, so Brandon does and becomes the new leader faction (and Umber the new heir if Brandon lacks any mature son).

6 years after, Robb's son (from the main bloodline) becomes mature (at 14) so he becomes new leader faction (or at least, new heir). The same would had happen if Brandon had died and Umber inherited... leadership would return to main bloodline.

If a bloodline rans out (it extincts), the new leader's bloodline becomes the new main bloodline. Continueing with the previous example: should Robb's son die without any son, Robb's bloodline ends. Then, Brandon becomes the leader faction and his bloodline is the new main bloodline.

However, I don't know if this is posible or not. Would it be posible, I think it will work out those problems. You know, this way Renly, Stannis and Robb would keep their bloodlines once they have a son, even if he is 0 years old and they die.

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[quote name='Inda' post='1358011' date='May 16 2008, 09.00']However, I don't know if this is posible or not. Would it be posible, I think it will work out those problems. You know, this way Renly, Stannis and Robb would keep their bloodlines once they have a son, even if he is 0 years old and they die.[/quote]
Sadly, quite impossible, although why they [i]didn't [/i] have a system like this in Mw is beyond me. Also, I think we're starting quite a bit before you think we are, in terms of chronology- Namely, just after Eddard Stark's execution. Therefore, most of what you said about wives and the like is really somewhat against the grain. That said, a few more things:
Drop Renly's fertility a bit to represent his sexual preference, or give him one of the homosexual traits (believe me, they exist), and then give Margaery big fertility bonuses- 2nd or even 3rd level. That should solve any problems in his camp, as long as his current heir is old enough (and childless enough) to not interfere with the succession (killing said person off on purpose is always an option :evil:). Lowering the age limit removes the problems with Stark and Joffrey which just leaves... Stannis. Who I have no idea how to go about fixing, short of making Edric Storm his heir, which I would be extremely hesitant to do. I suppose he'll just have to rely on the inevitable dozen or so adoption cantidates he receives... *sigh*

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[quote]I think we're starting quite a bit before you think we are, in terms of chronology- Namely, just after Eddard Stark's execution. Therefore, most of what you said about wives and the like is really somewhat against the grain.[/quote]

I know what timeframe the mod is aiming for. But sometimes it's better to aim for playability. I wouldn't like to see at 20th turn a Westeros leaded by a Crakehall, a Bolton, a Caron and a Celtigar leaders.

Also, right after Eddard execution, wasn't Renly arranging an alliance with Mace, becoming his new king? So on, Renly wasn't married right after Eddard's death. I mean, he should be married and crowned by Highgarden, or nothing at all.

If you say that giving Renly gay traits and fertility ones to his wife would work this out, that's enough for me.

Another question, bringing to a Daedalus quote in the Lite thread.
[quote]Gampie, I've developed something of a concern for family members and generals in this mod. The fact is that to keep true to the books, it's absolutely necessary to keep the turn lengths to no longer than a month, which means that new family members will be coming in at a rate of roughly one per 50 or 60 turns[/quote]

What timescale is going to be used? Even if you lower the mature age threshold, those potential heirs wil need plenty of time to grow up (thus, raising the chances of a faction leader death in combat or being murdered by an agent), leaving the question in the initial terms.

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Thanks all for the input!

As far as the succession - after reading your posts - goes, I'll stick to the solutions offered here:
- 'Coming of Age' lowered to 14 years.
- Bran and Tommen are 14 and heirs
- Perhaps assign Edric Storm as Stannis heir. It might be best to call him 'Edric Baratheon' otherwise his children would carry the bastard name 'Storm'. If he succeeds Stannis it would be better if the king of Dragonstone does not have a bastard name.
- Renly: give him an old heir who will surely die before Renly does.

About Renly's traits: currently he has a 'Wife is Charming' trait and a 'Wife is Fertile' trait. I think those are applicable to Margaery. Yes, she's in his tree since he was betrothed to Margaery very soon after (or before??) Eddard's execution I wanted her to be in Renly's family tree when the mod starts. I figured that most players would want Renly to be married to Margaery and not to some unimportant, newly created woman that the game offers you.
Renly has a 'Virile' trait as well but after reading Ran's post I'll scratch that one and look for a 'queer' trait.

[quote]I'd put other generals rather than Orthon Merryweather (would be like seeing Petyr leading a charge), he is more a politician than a warrior. Westernlands and those surrounding Kingslanging are plenty of good, suitable generals.[/quote]
I never mentioned Orton Merryweather but perhaps you meant Gyles Rosby? Isn't that the guy with his horrible, blood-spewing cough? Come to think of it, if it is him he should indeed be a politician and not some general. Can you name some other suitable generals for Joffrey?
Not Westerland ones (like Jaime), those are in the Lannister faction.

[quote]What timescale is going to be used? Even if you lower the mature age threshold, those potential heirs wil need plenty of time to grow up (thus, raising the chances of a faction leader death in combat or being murdered by an agent), leaving the question in the initial terms.[/quote]
I believe the lowest timescale was 0.50 but I heard that it could be lowered through scripting. However I don't think it would matter since - according to a post I read - all characters always age in the winter. So, every two turns they get +1 year.


Yesterday I checked the game to see how the succession went if Robb were to die prematurely. So the situation was like this: Robb as faction leader and Jon Umber as heir. Both did not have any children. Bran and Rickon were minors. I teleported Robb to Casterly Rock and mad him attack five units of Lannister soldiers. Robb was quickly dispatched and Jon Umber succeeded him. The Stark family tree disappeared and the Umber one replaced it.
Then something very odd happened. On the first turn of succession there was NO faction heir. I thought that the game would select an heir among the generals but it didn't. I pressed End Turn.
On the second turn there suddenly appeared a guy on the family tree and the campaign map. His name was Osric Mallen and he was 26 years old. He was also the son of Jon Umber although I was never offered an adoption proposal (I declined them all). Strangely enough there still wasn't a faction heir, not even this new fellow was the heir. I pressed End Turn.
Next turn Osric Mallen gets the label 'faction heir'. He is now next in line of succession. Strange, isn't it? The game forces an heir on you.

The funny thing was that I kept declining adoption offers for Jon Umber. Meanwhile the Stark boys had matured and were getting marriage proposals AND adoption proposals. I accepted them. Jon Umber got his wife conceived a few times and then died. Osric Mallen became faction leader but he did not have a mature son to succeed him. So... what happened? The game selected Bran Stark as faction heir! Haha. After a while Osric died and then the Stark family tree appeared again on the family tree page. All that time it had been a shadow family tree. By now it was greatly enlarged with new children and adopted generals.

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[quote]I never mentioned Orton Merryweather but perhaps you meant Gyles Rosby? Isn't that the guy with his horrible, blood-spewing cough? Come to think of it, if it is him he should indeed be a politician and not some general. Can you name some other suitable generals for Joffrey?
Not Westerland ones (like Jaime), those are in the Lannister faction.[/quote]

Sorry for the mistake, I was referring to Rosby, but anyways it would apply to both of them. I don't know why you take Joffrey appart from Lannister faction (despite his Baratheon official surname, he governs under Cersei and Tywin's commands). Anyways, thinking about generals for Joffrey suitable for Kingslanding:

-Jaime Lannister: he is a kingsguard and spents most of his time in Kingslanding.
-Another competent kingsguard like Ser Barristan (white cloaks commander) or Ser Arys (still at kingslanding by this timeframe).
-Sandor Clegane, the Hound: not a general, but a fearsome warrior.
-Janos Slynt: most of you wouldn't like him, but he was the captain of the goldcloaks.
-Vylarr: captain of Lannister's household watch in Kingslangind (the redcloaks). This name is acuratte, he replaced the one that died during Jaime's ambush to Eddard.

Next ones would come from minor houses sworn to kingslanding:
-Ser Elwood Harte managed to capture Ser Donnel Swan (heir of Stonehelm) later, at Balckwaters battle.
-Other generals could come from those minor houses, but there aren't prominent warriors among those mentioned in the novels.

For Westernlands:
-Tywin and Kevan Lannister.
-Ser Stafford Lannister (bu he died at Oxcross).
From his sworn houses:
-Ser Addam Marbrand is an experienced commander and a proven warrior that has lead Tywin’s cavalry, wings of his army and fought in almost every battle against the Starks.
-Ser Amory Lorch. Like Ser Gregor, despite having few own men, he is a Tywin commander, so he leads Tywin’s men. His death happened after this timeframe so he is alive at the beggining of the mod.
-Ser Gregor Clegane.
-Leo Lefford, drowned later than this mod.
-Tytos Brax, he was imprisoned after the Whispering wood, but that was later than this mod.
-Ser Forley Prester, he leaded the first siege at Riverrun.
-Ser Lyle Crakehall is a famous knight, often accompanying Jaime.
-Josmyn Peckledon, a young squire who distinguished himself at Blackwaters killing 2 knights, wounding a third and capturing 2 more. He was rewarded with a sword, a plate suit of armor and a warhorse from royal stables. Also, he will be granted with knighthood when he reaches the needed age.
-Last but not least: Vargo Hoat. He was hired by Gregor. I know it's impossible cause mercenaries have to be tied to a map region, but having some Bloody mummers avalaible for hire (only Lannister faction) would be awesome.

Hope you find it useful.

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[quote name='Inda' post='1359439' date='May 17 2008, 17.06']For Westernlands:
-Tywin and Kevan Lannister.
-Ser Stafford Lannister (bu he died at Oxcross).
From his sworn houses:
-Ser Addam Marbrand is an experienced commander and a proven warrior that has lead Tywin’s cavalry, wings of his army and fought in almost every battle against the Starks.
-Ser Amory Lorch. Like Ser Gregor, despite having few own men, he is a Tywin commander, so he leads Tywin’s men. His death happened after this timeframe so he is alive at the beggining of the mod.
-Ser Gregor Clegane.
-Leo Lefford, drowned later than this mod.
-Tytos Brax, he was imprisoned after the Whispering wood, but that was later than this mod.
-Ser Forley Prester, he leaded the first siege at Riverrun.
-Ser Lyle Crakehall is a famous knight, often accompanying Jaime.
-Josmyn Peckledon, a young squire who distinguished himself at Blackwaters killing 2 knights, wounding a third and capturing 2 more. He was rewarded with a sword, a plate suit of armor and a warhorse from royal stables. Also, he will be granted with knighthood when he reaches the needed age.
-Last but not least: Vargo Hoat. He was hired by Gregor. I know it's impossible cause mercenaries have to be tied to a map region, but having some Bloody mummers avalaible for hire (only Lannister faction) would be awesome.

Hope you find it useful.[/quote]

What about Daven Lannister? I mean, he is Warden of the East or something by book four.

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Well you could maybe use Tyrion as a general for Joffrey. Not sure if he was included in your Lannister family tree or not.

Well lots of good people to pick from anyway.

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Yes, I forgot Daven Lannister. That was just a fast-made list. ;)

About Tyrion, I wouldn't make him general, but as he did fight twice in the books (and one of those leading the garrison of Kingslanding) I think it's not a bad idea. But I'd give him some bad traits (lessening his wound points to reflect his cripled state). Not to mention he is keen on spirits and brothels, wise and a good economist. :)

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[quote]I don't know why you take Joffrey appart from Lannister faction (despite his Baratheon official surname, he governs under Cersei and Tywin's commands).[/quote]
I think this question will oft be asked of me. :-) Well, let's see. I made 'King Joffrey' and 'House Lannister' separate factions because:
- How should the merged faction be called? 'House Lannister' or 'King Joffrey'?
- Which faction leader should rule this house? If Joffrey rules then this would neglect Tywin. The latter would be an ordinary family member with a loyalty attribute. I consider Tywin to be one of the most powerful nobles in Westeros. In the books he does not take any orders from anyone and I want him to be as independent as in the books. But if he's faction leader then this would derogate from Joffrey's royal status. There is also the problem of the titles ('King' or 'Lord' for the faction leader).
- What to do with the banner? Jaime didn't besiege Riverrun under Joffrey's banner but under the Lannister one. On the other hand the royal fleet at King's Landing used Joff's banner.
- I remember that Tyrion complained to his father about the enormous debts of the crown. Tywin clearly stated that he would not absolve the debts owed to house Lannister. Apparantly these two treasuries are not to be mixed and Tywin's allegiance to his grandson is not of the nature to donate the majority of Casterly Rock's gold to the latter.
- After Tywin's death Cersei inherited the Rock, not Tommen. The Iron Throne and the Rock are two distinct heritages.

About the generals:
- Jaime Lannister is a general belonging to House Lannister. At the beginning of the mod he starts with an army not so far away from Riverrun (supposedly to besiege it).
- Ser Barristan: I'm loath to make him a general because his allegiance to Joffrey is paper-thin. I don't remember anymore but isn't it very soon after Eddard's death that Joff dishonours Barristan and he flees Westeros? I would rather include him in Dany's faction (which is non-existant at this point ;-)).
- Sandor Clegane is currently an ancillary of Joffrey.
- Janos Slynt: Hmm, this one is worthy to consider. It would add another character of the series and most players would love to kill him, I think.
- Vylarr: he could be an ancillary (if I find a portrait of him)
- Elwood Harte: worthy to consider


As for House Lannister, they already have 8 generals. I think I'll add Addam Marbrand because he's competent and plays an important military role. Maybe Stafford Lannister could be added as well. That would mean 10 generals. I don't want to add too many generals because once Lancel, Martyn, Willem and Tyrek start procreating you'll end up with tons of generals which weigh heavily on faction income.

Tyrion: I think he's descending from the Mountains of the Moon when the mod starts. I could skip the timeline a bit and give him to Joffrey as an ancillary. It's also a pity that there is no dwarf general model in M2TW. :P

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[quote]Tyrion: I think he's descending from the Mountains of the Moon when the mod starts. I could skip the timeline a bit and give him to Joffrey as an ancillary. It's also a pity that there is no dwarf general model in M2TW. tongue.gif[/quote]

Or you could have him a lone army right outside Vale with some Clan troops. It would be a pity to reduce him to ancillary. Make him general and give him less hitpoints and some governor traits

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I'm pondering what to do with him. I'm getting more and more convinced that he should be a general. I guess we can *stretch* the strict lore of the books a bit for the sake of fun. :)
He'll be on Joff's faction.

Regarding Janos Slynt and Ser Barrisan Selmy: Selmy was ousted before Ned's execution so he's out. Janos Slynt was raised to Lord of Harrenhal so he's in.

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