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Mysterious Character: "the Liddle"


Old Pate

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When walking through the Crypts of Winterfell Ned makes a mental note of how the Kings of the North were cold hard men like the land they lived in. Honor and Justice are deeply ingrained in the Starks. In his first Pov Bran comments on how Jon at 12 is already a old hand at Justice. "There Must Always Be A Stark in Winterfell" is something that Ned states so often that it becomes almost as much of a single effect as his honor.

That said what if Bran returns to the North from beyond the Wall who is there to back either his or Rickon's claim on Winterfell. By the time they return all of the major lords will have decided on support of one claim or the other. whether it be Stannis,Bolton/(Arya), Alayne or whoever. The Mountain clans will most likely be overlooked and they represent the true North just as the Highlanders symbolize Scotland. (I have generally envisioned the north as being based loosely off Medieval Scotland.
With the support of the Mountain clans Bran could press a claim especially if some more powerful lords, Mormont, perhaps hold out for him.
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Actually the meeting could be very important and perhaps we will see it consequences in upcoming book.
It looks like Bran talked if not with The Liddle but definitely with somebody of the clan chiefs.
By the amount of food that was left it seems that Liddle waited for Bran and this wasn’t a chance meeting. Liddle wanted to talk with Stark since he clearly knows who Bran was.
Liddle reminiscent of the past is actually his wishes for the future. He wants Stark in Winterfell again.
He is well aware of what going in the North and on the Wall. He knows that Boltons are looking for Bran and offering reward for him yet it is clear that he wouldn’t betray Stark.

Now - no matter if he was The Liddle or somebody close to him – chiefs of the clan know that Stark boys are alive since if Bran is alive then his brother should be alive as well.

There should be a lot of action in the ADWD in the North and mountain clans probably would get involved into it. So their chiefs may appear on scene and their behavior certainly would be affected by their knowledge about Starks. Besides Liddle didn’t swear any oath so if he will meet with Jon…

So I’m almost sure that we will yet see the person who helped Bran in ASOS and probably soon.
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[quote name='Ender' post='1394441' date='Jun 11 2008, 14.52']I'd tend to agree with the most recent point, that if he has a further role to play, it will be with regards to informing/leading/what have you Stark loyalists.

Also consider that the exact timing of Littlefinger's plans are unclear, but given that he supposedly wishes Sansa to lay claim to the North, both the house(s) hosting Osha and Rickon, and the Liddle Bran met could find themselves standing in LF's way.

My gut tells me the Stark succession is going to get a bit messy. Rickon is the most easily used, Jon currently the strongest political and military figure of the candidates and perhaps even the most Ned-like, Sansa would have both the Vale and the Riverlands behind her if LF's plan works as he told Sansa (which, to be sure, is almost certainly not exactly what he has planned), and her claim is bolstered by the fact that Bran and Rickon are believed to be dead. Meanwhile, Bran is the Lord/King Stark by virtue of birthright/Robb's death. Different factions in the North could support any of the four candidates depending on their own personal interests, and it may very well require the Liddle Bran met to step forward and say, "Wait a minute! Bran isn't dead!" to make sure he isn't overlooked, particularly because it looks as if he's going to be the furthest "out of sight" as the Long Winter grows longer.[/quote]
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The thing that has continued to puzzle me is why the two characters never explicitly acknolwedge one another by name, if they clearly know who each other are. (Bran seems to know his family name, if not his first name.) This initially made me think that Bran might be wrong about the man's identity. But now another thought occurs to me.

Martin wants to keep us in supsense and make us wonder about this character. But he also wants to suggest to us that Bran was recognized by this man. By showing us that Bran recognizes the Liddle, it creates the suggestion that the Liddle also recognized Bran. Yet, by not having the Liddle explicitly say "Hey, I know you! You're Robb Stark's heir," it somehow seems to help characterize the Liddle as being trustworthy. We feel that Bran's secret is safe with him.

....

On another matter, I want to point out that Jon is actually Robb's rightful heir, not Bran or Rickon. But, of course, whether any of Robb's men who knew about Jon's legitimization are still alive after the Red Wedding is another matter.

My guess is that eventually Rickon will be "the Stark in Winterfell." The other characters seem to have other destinies. That's just my gut feeling.
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[quote name='Old Pate' post='1395451' date='Jun 12 2008, 08.36']On another matter, I want to point out that Jon is actually Robb's rightful heir, not Bran or Rickon. But, of course, whether any of Robb's men who knew about Jon's legitimization are still alive after the Red Wedding is another matter.[/quote]

I'm not sure we know that Robb ever named Jon his heir (if i'm wrong please point me to some text)... we know he was considering it, but until the contents of a certain decree become known, I don't think we can say Jon is Robb's heir for sure.

In any event, pretty sure that as far as the Liddle was concerned, Bran was the heir to Winterfell.
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After I read that chapter again I pretty sure that the man Bran encountered was most probably The Liddle or some his close relative.

Prior to the encounter Bran and Reeds talked about two things. One was that their party is easy recognizable with two crannogmen too far away from Neck with crippled boy and direwolf.
Another thing was that Bran was sure that mountain men are aware of their presence and Bran and company traveled through mountains for many days if not weeks before the encounter.

Now if mountain men know about Bran’s party at least some of then would figure out who they were. And when they did it surely were news that their leader should be informed about.

The Liddle recognized Bran yet she showed absolutely no surprise by seen him alive so he knew before the encounter. Maybe he looked after them before inviting them into the cave but more probably he was informed where he may found them.

The Liddle was dressed too well to be a simple peasant and while he said no names he made no attempt to hide his house identity.

His talk also didn’t fit for peasant besides despite knowing who Bran and his companions are he talked to them like equals and quietly accepted Jojen calling him “my lord”.

By all this it seems that it really was TORREN LIDDLE
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[quote name='dragonfire613' post='1395463' date='Jun 12 2008, 08.50']I'm not sure we know that Robb ever named Jon his heir (if i'm wrong please point me to some text)... we know he was considering it, but until the contents of a certain decree become known, I don't think we can say Jon is Robb's heir for sure.

In any event, pretty sure that as far as the Liddle was concerned, Bran was the heir to Winterfell.[/quote]

Well, you're quite right "as far as the Liddle was concerned."

Concerning Jon's legitimation, I've started a new thread.
[url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=28941"]http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=28941[/url]
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[quote name='Anatole Kuragin' post='1396381' date='Jun 12 2008, 18.12']The Liddle is the 3 Eyed Crow.[/quote]

Hmmm. That would explain why he knows so much about so many different things on both sides of the Wall.

Interesting idea.

But why would the Three Eyed Crow pick that occasion to suddenly reveal himself in physical form. All along he only appears in dreams.
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  • 3 weeks later...
Sometimes a Liddle is just a Liddle. That doesn't preclude him from being The Liddle, I suppose. Nor does it mean he would be ignorant of the goings on in the North, as he would have a vested interest in being aware of the fate of his Liege Lord(s), the Stark(s) at Winterfell. For a fire and a few tasty oatcakes, the hidden highland Pinecone Lord has made a pal for life of (arguably) the Crown Prince of the North (Robb's closest legitimate brother until Bran's "death") and unless King Robb's parchment reads differently, King Bran the Hodor-Borne, once he reveals his living, breathing self. He may be Liddle, but he ain't stupid.
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[quote name='Old Pate' post='1395451' date='Jun 12 2008, 07.36']The thing that has continued to puzzle me is why the two characters never explicitly acknolwedge one another by name, if they clearly know who each other are. (Bran seems to know his family name, if not his first name.) This initially made me think that Bran might be wrong about the man's identity. But now another thought occurs to me.

Martin wants to keep us in supsense and make us wonder about this character. But he also wants to suggest to us that Bran was recognized by this man. By showing us that Bran recognizes the Liddle, it creates the suggestion that the Liddle also recognized Bran. Yet, by not having the Liddle explicitly say "Hey, I know you! You're Robb Stark's heir," it somehow seems to help characterize the Liddle as being trustworthy. We feel that Bran's secret is safe with him.[/quote]
That is just basic security precautions in times of civil war. If captured and tortured by the Boltons the Liddle that met Bran would be able to hold out longer/tell a more convincing story since he actually never was told specifically who the refugees he met were. Guessed yes, told for certain no.

sPh
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Liddle provided Bran with much more then just a fire and a food. First he informed him that his enemies are aware that Bran is alive and looking for him as well as offering good reward for information. (Wolf pelts and walking dead). He also made it clear that he isn’t interested in the reward and would like to see Stark in Winterfell again. True his aid didn’t extend further but Bran never asked of it and apparently tried to keep his incognito. So Liddle honored his with but now Bran knows that Liddles are still loyal to Stark and would he ask for more help he will get it.
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[quote name='hnv' post='1426076' date='Jul 3 2008, 07.09']crackpot theory:
liddle is baby Aegon
carried by ned to the north and placed in one of the safest place around!!!![/quote]

I am still going with my theory that he was killed at Queenscrown by Ygritte. I think the Starks reclaiming the north will not happen due to Robb. I believe he names a non Stark heir and this will cause problems when Bran or Rickon try to claim the throne. I would love to see dumb Robb name a Bolton heir to the North. That would be classic.
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[quote name='krash9924' post='1426090' date='Jul 3 2008, 08.29']I am still going with my theory that he was killed at Queenscrown by Ygritte. I think the Starks reclaiming the north will not happen due to Robb. I believe he names a non Stark heir and this will cause problems when Bran or Rickon try to claim the throne. I would love to see dumb Robb name a Bolton heir to the North. That would be classic.[/quote]

Contradicting your theory (as I wrote in post #8 of this thread) would be the fact that the man Ygritte killed was described repeatedly as an "old man" and had a horse. Neither of these details is mentioned in regard to the Liddle. There's really nothing linking the old man and the Liddle other than the fact that they are tromping around in the same part of the continent of Westeros.

On your second point, I also have to disagree. I think it is pretty clear that Robb names Jon his heir. See the "Jon Stark, king in the North" thread. In any case, doesn't Jojen tell us something about a Stark reclaiming Winterfell?
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