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Mysterious Character: "the Liddle"


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He points 2 reasons other than his bellyful: A deep cultural divide and no Dragons. that really says it all

And that decision worked out great for them, right? The situation has changed. I don't think they'd continue with a suicidal and doomed war if Stannis leads them to victory and offers them peace on reasonable terms.

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And that decision worked out great for them, right? The situation has changed. I don't think they'd continue with a suicidal and doomed war if Stannis leads them to victory and offers them peace on reasonable terms.

Stannis has nothing without them, not the other way around.

Remove Stannis and Bolton and what exactly is the South going to do? Winter is here and all Westeros is exhausted by war. A long winter and 1 good harvest puts the North back in the drivers seat.

The Southron lords will still be clawing each others eyes out come spring

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Stannis has nothing without them, not the other way around. Remove Stannis and Bolton and what exactly is the South going to do? Winter is here and all Westeros is exhausted by war. A long winter and 1 good harvest puts the North back in the drivers seat. The Southron lords will still be clawing each others eyes out come spring

You're skipping the important point. Removing Stannis entails defeating his army. Stannis started with 2000 well-trained, well-equipped men and and picked up about 3000 more with the mountain clans, Alysane Mormont, and other hangers-on. They've been decimated by the weather and the fight with the Boltons is still ahead -- but still, Stannis and his army will not simply disappear because the Northmen wish it. A brutal fight to the death with the mountain clans and Northmen turning against Stannis' army would be necessary. Who knows what the numbers will be post-weather and post-Boltons, but given the numbers I mentioned earlier, such a fight would be criminally stupid (3000 unequipped and untrained vs. 2000 equipped and trained). Even if they win they'd take immense losses. I think they've backed a horse and they'll stick with him.

Plus, pledging themselves to Stannis and then turning on him when he's really done nothing bad to them and in fact led them to victory is quite a Frey move.

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You're skipping the important point. Removing Stannis entails defeating his army. Stannis started with 2000 well-trained, well-equipped men and and picked up about 3000 more with the mountain clans, Alysane Mormont, and other hangers-on. They've been decimated by the weather and the fight with the Boltons is still ahead -- but still, Stannis and his army will not simply disappear because the Northmen wish it. A brutal fight to the death with the mountain clans and Northmen turning against Stannis' army would be necessary. Who knows what the numbers will be post-weather and post-Boltons, but given the numbers I mentioned earlier, such a fight would be criminally stupid. I think they've backed a horse and they'll stick with him.

Plus, pledging themselves to Stannis and then turning on him when he's really done nothing bad to them and in fact led them to victory is quite a Frey move.

those 3000 clansmen count for the north not for stannis.

Stannis's 2000 have been dying alot quicker than the clansmen

The north doesnt have to fight Stannis. they can just leave his ass out in the cold. literaly

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those 3000 clansmen count for the north not for stannis.

I edited to clarify that while you were writing your post. Stannis' force remains better-equipped and better-trained, despite the cold.

The north doesnt have to fight Stannis. they can just leave his ass out in the cold. literaly

So Stannis and the northmen beat the Boltons and take Winterfell, and for some reason the northmen make it into the castle and Stannis gets left outside? Doesn't make sense. War is not the answer to everything. A peace, and bending the knee to Stannis, makes much more sense here.

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I edited to clarify that while you were writing your post. Stannis' force remains better-equipped and better-trained, despite the cold.

Are they? Better-equipped and better-trained for warfare in the South during summer, perhaps. But Asha's POV makes it very clear that Stannis's men, who are unused to the cold, are dropping like flies, their warhorses are becoming dinner, yet the clansmen are "hale and hearty" and bitching about how Stannis's guys are wimps.

So Stannis and the northmen beat the Boltons and take Winterfell, and for some reason the northmen make it into the castle and Stannis gets left outside? Doesn't make sense. War is not the answer to everything. A peace, and bending the knee to Stannis, makes much more sense here.

Stannis is losing a lot of men to the cold. The clansmen/Northmen outnumbered him before, god only knows what his numbers must be now. So the clansmen/Mormonts/etc. use Stannis and his remaining men to take Winterfell and grab "Arya". They tell Stannis he's more than welcome to the Iron Throne, but they will not support a man who's trying to usurp the rightful King of the North in the North. What can Stannis do?

I mean, there must be a reason that GRRM included the scene of Bran/the Reeds meeting up with a Liddle. It's very clear that the Liddle knows who he's talking to (there's only one cripple being followed around by a direwolf). So if the clansmen bend the knee to Stannis, that means that, when Bran inevitably returns (as Jojen said the wolves would return), the clansmen would be bound to fight a Stark in the name of a southerner. I don't think they have any intention of letting that happen.

Yes, Stannis is fighting the Boltons and the Ironborn. But even the Boltons are killing the Ironborn (Ramsay flayed a bunch of them from Moat Cailin). Stannis is a southerner trying to usurp the Starks, and while he may not be a pretender to the Iron Throne, as far as the North is concerned, the Iron Throne has no business in the North.

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They tell Stannis he's more than welcome to the Iron Throne, but they will not support a man who's trying to usurp the rightful King of the North in the North. What can Stannis do? ... Stannis is a southerner trying to usurp the Starks, and while he may not be a pretender to the Iron Throne, as far as the North is concerned, the Iron Throne has no business in the North.

But they don't have Bran. You can't crown someone who's not there. Trying to "kick Stannis out" would mean a risky and devastating battle with his army, which won't just vanish.

I mean, there must be a reason that GRRM included the scene of Bran/the Reeds meeting up with a Liddle.

To show that despite the apparent victory, there is much sympathy for the Starks among the mountain clans, and to set the stage for the later overthrow of the Boltons.

So if the clansmen bend the knee to Stannis, that means that, when Bran inevitably returns (as Jojen said the wolves would return), the clansmen would be bound to fight a Stark in the name of a southerner. I don't think they have any intention of letting that happen.

My impression was that most people on this board don't think that Bran will ever return -- his destiny is to use his powers to fight the Others, not claim Winterfell. It's far more likely that Rickon is being reintroduced to claim Winterfell under King Stannis -- because the character headed for Rickon right now conveniently happens to be Stannis' Hand. And the guy Stannis already promised Winterfell to has turned out to be a traitor, so the "Lord of Winterfell" position will conveniently be open. No, there will be no conflict between Stannis and the Starks, or Stannis and the Northmen, or Stannis and the clans. Especially when the Others arrive "independence" will be the last thing on the North's mind, they'll need all the help they can get.

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My impression was that most people on this board don't think that Bran will ever return -- his destiny is to use his powers to fight the Others, not claim Winterfell. It's far more likely that Rickon is being reintroduced to claim Winterfell under King Stannis -- because the character headed for Rickon right now conveniently happens to be Stannis' Hand. And the guy Stannis already promised Winterfell to has turned out to be a traitor, so the "Lord of Winterfell" position will conveniently be open. No, there will be no conflict between Stannis and the Starks, or Stannis and the Northmen, or Stannis and the clans. Especially when the Others arrive "independence" will be the last thing on the North's mind, they'll need all the help they can get.

If Rickon shows up, he'll confirm that Bran survived the sacking of Winterfell. From the POV of people like Manderly, Stannis, and the clansmen, just because Bran hasn't been found yet doesn't mean he isn't out there---look at what it took to locate Rickon. There's no reason to assume Manderly knows it's Rickon, not Bran, on Skagos---names were conveniently left out of that conversation. And if Bran is still alive, Rickon has no right to Winterfell.

Isn't that what happened to Daemon II Blackfyre? When he tried to lead the Second Blackfyre rebellion, Bloodraven had him imprisoned (but not killed), because as long as Daemon lived, Bittersteel couldn't just crown his younger brother.

Now, I actually agree with the theory that Bran will never rule Winterfell (while admitting I could be wrong). But even if that is GRRM's plan, the characters explicitly DON'T know that. In Westeros, you can't just crown a younger son when you have reason to believe that an older son still lives. Look at Stannis's history---after what happened with Renly, do we really believe he'll name Rickon Lord of Winterfell if he has reason to believe Bran is still in hiding?

But they don't have Bran. You can't crown someone who's not there. Trying to "kick Stannis out" would mean a risky and devastating battle with his army, which won't just vanish.

Stannis's army is doing a fine job of vanishing in the snow. The people dying are Stannis's southern knights---the northmen are doing fine. Any battle between the northmen and Stannis wouldn't exactly be guaranteed to end well for Stannis. And even if they don't physically have Bran---what then? Manderly doesn't have Rickon yet his plans are clearly going full speed ahead. If the Liddles told the others that they saw Bran heading North, and if they assumed Bran was seeking sanctuary at the Wall, they might think Jon is hiding him until it's safe for the Northern lords to go get him (and it will be safe once Stannis is no longer a threat to the new King in the North). That might have been one reason why Old Flint and The Norrey came to Castle Black--to look for any hints of Bran.

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In Westeros, you can't just crown a younger son when you have reason to believe that an older son still lives. Look at Stannis's history---after what happened with Renly, do we really believe he'll name Rickon Lord of Winterfell if he has reason to believe Bran is still in hiding?

If Stannis even did care about this, he'd just name Rickon "Acting Lord of Winterfell," just like Robb was in AGOT and Bran was in ACOK. There's really no conflict here. This isn't the Iron Throne.

Stannis's army is doing a fine job of vanishing in the snow. The people dying are Stannis's southern knights---the northmen are doing fine. Any battle between the northmen and Stannis wouldn't exactly be guaranteed to end well for Stannis.

Yes, it would be a disaster for both Stannis and the Northmen. That's why neither will want to do it, when they really have nothing to fight over.

And even if they don't physically have Bran---what then? ...That might have been one reason why Old Flint and The Norrey came to Castle Black--to look for any hints of Bran.

Maybe they're trying to find him. But there's no reason to move against Stannis unless they find him or at the very least have a better idea where he is than just "near the Wall."

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Wow... to be honest, I'd forgotten about this gentleman, and he is a game-changer.

If The Liddle knows about Bran, all the other clans do. And they all joined Stannis.

And none of them told him the truth.

It puts a different spin on this quote, for sure...

[big Bucket Wull] "Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face as my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my lips."

When I read that for the first time, I was wondering- why the emphasis on Bolton? Sure, the other northmen aren't big fans, but the Freys get most of the blame for the Red Wedding.

They despise Bolton because they knew "flayed men" were hunting their child-king. They despise Bolton because, from there, it's not too hard to figure out they also turned on the other northmen and sacked Winterfell.

Oh, man, they're screwed... but so is Stannis.

His Grace left the Wall with 1.2K men. After taking Deepwood Motte, he wrote Jon to tell him he now had over five thousand. That means northmen outnumber his men 4-1. Before the endless forced marches that, we're told, decimate the southron troops but take very few northmen. Which, surely, was taken as yet another sign that the old gods are punishing the false king and his demon-worshippers.

And then Karstark shows up with 500 men, and Crowfood Umber is posted outside Winterfell with, probably, another few hundred.

So Stannis' army, which is actually mostly comprised of northmen, camps out three days from Winterfell. Bolton sends out the Freys and Manderlys. Something happens. A couple hundred "survivors" report back to Winterfell seven days later: "What's good, Lord Ramsay? We killed Stannis, here's his sword. Oh, the Freys? They crashed through some ice. Yes, it was terrible. So what's for dinner?"

(They really did kill Stannis, and they really will kill Ramsay. A pox on both usurpers. This is a twist worthy of GRRM. :D)

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With Stannis, as we have seen from the end of his last hand, decides what is treason.

Not Considering Stannis your king is treason.

Withholding critical information from your king in wartime is treason.

Knowing about someone else commiting treason and not condemning it instantly in public is treason.

Soooo what?! They are not sworn to Stannis, what does it matter to them what Stannis thinks

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Wow... to be honest, I'd forgotten about this gentleman, and he is a game-changer.

If The Liddle knows about Bran, all the other clans do. And they all joined Stannis.

And none of them told him the truth.

It puts a different spin on this quote, for sure...

[big Bucket Wull] "Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face as my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my lips."

When I read that for the first time, I was wondering- why the emphasis on Bolton? Sure, the other northmen aren't big fans, but the Freys get most of the blame for the Red Wedding.

They despise Bolton because they knew "flayed men" were hunting their child-king. They despise Bolton because, from there, it's not too hard to figure out they also turned on the other northmen and sacked Winterfell.

Oh, man, they're screwed... but so is Stannis.

His Grace left the Wall with 1.2K men. After taking Deepwood Motte, he wrote Jon to tell him he now had over five thousand. That means northmen outnumber his men 4-1. Before the endless forced marches that, we're told, decimate the southron troops but take very few northmen. Which, surely, was taken as yet another sign that the old gods are punishing the false king and his demon-worshippers.

And then Karstark shows up with 500 men, and Crowfood Umber is posted outside Winterfell with, probably, another few hundred.

So Stannis' army, which is actually mostly comprised of northmen, camps out three days from Winterfell. Bolton sends out the Freys and Manderlys. Something happens. A couple hundred "survivors" report back to Winterfell seven days later: "What's good, Lord Ramsay? We killed Stannis, here's his sword. Oh, the Freys? They crashed through some ice. Yes, it was terrible. So what's for dinner?"

(They really did kill Stannis, and they really will kill Ramsay. A pox on both usurpers. This is a twist worthy of GRRM. :D)

Because of Liddle, I think the Northern clans know that Bran is alive. As for not telling Stannis I doubt it is because they want to destroy his army. They would hold this knowledge close until they knew where he was. They would also likely know of the increased wight threat from beyond the Wall. I can see them aligning with Stannis to defend the Wall. The North take the NW & Wall seriously. Stannis wants Winterfall so that he has control of the Northmen for the defense of the Wall.

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This is a great thread. Caused me to go back and reread some chapters. As a tangent on the Northern Clan issue that is worthy of a bit of thought is that Joren and Meera have a discussion with Bran in a SoS and there is a mention of Big Bucket Wull fighting and travelling with Howland, presumably with Ned during the rebellion. It does not sound like he would have been at the Tower of Joy, but BBW (who is with Stannis now) may know about Bran and who Jon really is. And H. Reed has connections, based on this, to the Northern clans.

Anyway, it does seem like the clansmen are dealing with the Winter pretty well, and see Stannis as an aid to accomplish their goal - irdding the North of the Boltons (doesn;t take a rocket scientist to see that you would not want them to be in charge) and the Freys.

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Maybe he's the hooded man who Theon talks to at Winrerfell.

I tend to suspect this as well, oathbreaker. And Kingslayer, that was a pretty badass post. I don't know if I'm completely convinced that the northmen turned against Stannis outside of Winterfell, but it's an interesting possibility.

Don't you think that the Northmen would be supportive of Stannis since he arrived at the Wall to repel the Wildlings, and thereby helped defend the Northern territories? (sounds like Canada now) I do think they're probably only using him to get revenge on the Boltons. The northern clans are going to support a King in the North regardless.

And that Big Bucket Wull quote..... *shivers* Because not only are the Boltons the ones who were helping the Starks, but they're also the ones that burned Winterfell to the ground.

Remember the old man on the lone horse who ends up in the building outside the queen's tower? This is where Jon and Bran have their "almost" moment. The old guy that Ygritte ends up killing just before Summer attacks and Jon bolts back to the Wall. Think he could be a Liddle tracker sent to see where Bran was headed and keep an eye on him?

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Well, the Bran problem... Isnt there a really good chance that Robb named Jon Snow as his heir? If Jon lives long enough he might refuse the crown because of his wows, but he may still act as Bran'S/ Rickon's regent. Can a person refuse the claim? I think there were a chapter were Bran though that they will never really respect him because he is a cripple, and i dont think being greenseer helps. Maybe Reeds will return some underground way an claim that Bran died and no one would ask twice because its better that way for everyone.

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