Jump to content

Mysterious Character: "the Liddle"


Old Pate

Recommended Posts

It's an interesting question. I don't think the Northern clansmen would turn on Stannis, they have been built up to be quite "honorable" in the way that Northern Lords who really follow the Old Gods are. They seem to be pretty loyal to the Starks, so imo they would probably support Stannis so long as he's against the Boltons and Freys, which we know he is. They don't have much to gain by killing Stannis either, they need his support and legitimacy if they want to rid the North of the Boltons and Freys.

But it does seem somewhat weird that they might know that Bran is alive and haven't told Stannis about it. It does make me wonder if they are playing a game, but again they just strike me as too honorable and religious to just turn on someone they've pledged their swords to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The character actually is Rhaegar's second son. After feigning his death on the Trident and assuming the identity of Patchface, in which diguise he closely monitored the events in the realm, he fathered a son with Lyanna, who didn't die at the Tower of Joy, but instead was swapped with Ashara Dayne. Eddard kept this terrible secret all along, only sharing it with his love interest Howland Reed, who took the Liddle as his own son and raised him, making him aware of his greenseeing powers. After a training period of nigh 20 years, the Liddle - which is the nickname taken on by Rhaegar's second son, whose true name is unknown - used the extensive weirwood network of Westeros to connect to the children of the forest, preparing them for Bran. After that, he used a magic spell that let him look older than he was in reality, and waited in the hills for Bran, saving him from starvation and planting a magic seed in his clothing to track him. He then double-tracked to the Wall, crossed it before Bran was able to reach it, and made his way to the cave, where he assumed the identity of "Brynden Rivers" to complete Bran's training.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Resurrecting this thread yet again to ask posters' thoughts on where the Northern clans will be come endgame.

Flints and Norreys: both sent their sons along to join Stannis' army, but the lords themselves did not go. But they did however show up for Alys Karstark's wedding. What does this say about northern loyalties?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Resurrecting this thread yet again to ask posters' thoughts on where the Northern clans will be come endgame.

Flints and Norreys: both sent their sons along to join Stannis' army, but the lords themselves did not go. But they did however show up for Alys Karstark's wedding. What does this say about northern loyalties?

Northern loyalties are solidly behind the Starks. I may need to reread the weeding at Winterfell, but perhaps the lords needed to attend that. Poor Boltons and Freys being trapped in the pit of vipers, that Winterfell has become.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's mostly just that the Flint & the Norrey are old as balls and would die on a march like that.

I didn't catch before that Big Liddle had joined the Watch. The fact that the Liddle's first son went off to the Night's Watch tells you a lot about how loyal to the ideals of the North these houses are. The clans are Stark loyalists through and through.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I flipped through that chapter, with Norrey & Flint at the Wall. They're presented as pretty amicable to Jon's ideas; that may just be by comparison to Bowen Marsh but they seem at least willing to take the threat of the Others at face value and make plans accordingly. In any case, that'll become irrelevant when another Stark (Rickon?) is produced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is also the fact that THE Flint and THE Norrey showed up at the wall. For a Karstark wedding.

With troops. both of them.

Hmmmmm....

We know the Liddles know about Bran, we can only assume that the other mountain clans know as well. Are they working with the "lowland" Stark loyalists? Are they unaware that there are Lowland stark loyalists? Are there going to be 2 sides or 3 at the battle of winterfell?

are the Frey's and Stannis both going to find out that

The North is Dark, and Full of Umbers.

Thoughts? Discussion?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that with the clansmen coming down to the wall could have happened because word got out from that Liddle to the other clans, so they picked up some men to go to the wall to see if it was true. The man that Bran encountered knew they were heading that way anyway so the clansmen that came to the wall may want to go hunting north of the wall to find Bran. Maybe as another debt to somebody or to rally The North again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried to come up with something to contribute to this discussion and failed to do so. There's just nothing to say about some Liddle guy from a previous book. Sorry. If there's a way for Littlefinger to get information, though, he'll get it, so characters like Liddle may be how Rickon gets whacked. Not a lot of faith in the Rickon Restoration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried to come up with something to contribute to this discussion and failed to do so. There's just nothing to say about some Liddle guy from a previous book. Sorry. If there's a way for Littlefinger to get information, though, he'll get it, so characters like Liddle may be how Rickon gets whacked. Not a lot of faith in the Rickon Restoration.

But how in the heck would Littlefinger be in any position to get information from the Liddles, or any of the northern clans? LF has his hands full with managing the Vale lords and trying to perv on Sansa right now, methinks.

I flipped through that chapter, with Norrey & Flint at the Wall. They're presented as pretty amicable to Jon's ideas; that may just be by comparison to Bowen Marsh but they seem at least willing to take the threat of the Others at face value and make plans accordingly. In any case, that'll become irrelevant when another Stark (Rickon?) is produced.

Yes. It'd be easy to assume that some of the clans would hate on Jon for letting the wildlings come over, but Others are worse than wildlings. Also, we shouldn't forget that, at least from one perspective, Jon's a Stark. Let's pretend for a minute that The Liddle didn't convey the fact that Bran is alive. As far as the clans are concerned, Jon may very be the last Stark. So they're going to support him, especially when he orders the march on Winterfell. (Littlespider pauses, hangs head in despair.)

But I am flaking on northern attitudes towards bastardy. Can anyone help me out here? For some reason I'm thinking that being a bastard in the North is not as big a deal as it is farther south, though I could be completely making this up!

From another perspective, say they know Bran's alive. Flint and Norrey could be preparing to send some expedition in search of him, and that's why they brought their chiefs along with a train of warriors. Any other ideas about what this might signify? I need to study up on my Karstark geneology and see how it would benefit the clans, aside from their presence just being evidence of loyalty to the Stark cause.

DS, by lowland stark loyalists do you mean the southron knights that are getting their asses handed to them in the snow during Stannis' march on Winterfell? For some reason I doubt these guys are working directly with the clans.

But it's also evident that the clans are for the moment not working directly with the Manderlys, or else My-man Wyman would know about Bran as well. I'd be interested in seeing Big Bucket Wull meet up with Manderly, but only after Wull is finished with Ramsay Bolton.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But how in the heck would Littlefinger be in any position to get information from the Liddles, or any of the northern clans? LF has his hands full with managing the Vale lords and trying to perv on Sansa right now, methinks.

Stannis didn't even know the clans existed because they're apparently not on a map. It's very possible that Littlefinger has no idea they exist either. And even if by some miracle he did, it's doubtful whether he'd be able to get anyone in the hills to spy for him, either logistically or culturally.

Yes. It'd be easy to assume that some of the clans would hate on Jon for letting the wildlings come over, but Others are worse than wildlings. Also, we shouldn't forget that, at least from one perspective, Jon's a Stark. Let's pretend for a minute that The Liddle didn't convey the fact that Bran is alive. As far as the clans are concerned, Jon may very be the last Stark. So they're going to support him, especially when he orders the march on Winterfell. (Littlespider pauses, hangs head in despair.)

The one thing that basically the entire North agrees on is that the Starks are in charge. If the wildlings come through and swear allegiance to the Stark in Winterfell (if Jon is freed from his vows and takes over the North), then the wildlings are technically no different than the Glovers or the Manderlys---different from the clansmen, but still sworn to Winterfell.

But I am flaking on northern attitudes towards bastardy. Can anyone help me out here? For some reason I'm thinking that being a bastard in the North is not as big a deal as it is farther south, though I could be completely making this up!

In one of the Dunk and Egg novellas, Egg starts quoting the High Septon as saying that trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and are blessed by the Mother and Father, while bastards are born of weakness and lust. But since the North doesn't follow the Seven, and the old gods aren't male or female and don't have many rules, I think it's very possible that Jon's bastard status wouldn't be nearly as difficult to overcome in the North as it would in the South.

From another perspective, say they know Bran's alive. Flint and Norrey could be preparing to send some expedition in search of him, and that's why they brought their chiefs along with a train of warriors. Any other ideas about what this might signify? I need to study up on my Karstark geneology and see how it would benefit the clans, aside from their presence just being evidence of loyalty to the Stark cause.

Jon tells Alys Karstark that Lord Rickard's mother was one of the First Flints, and the Appendix confirms that Old Flint is the head of the First Flints. So Old Flint is either Jon's (and Bran's) cousin several times removed, or even possibly their great-great-uncle. Either way, he's the Starks' closest Northern kinsman we've definitively seen so far.

If the clansmen know Bran's alive, they're probably assuming he sought shelter at the Wall (a la Alys Karstark). I mean, they'd know Bran was headed North, and where else would he logically go? Not to mention that his bastard brother is Lord Commander of the Watch---Jon would be in a perfect position to shield Bran. They don't know that Stannis wanted to give Winterfell to Jon (Stannis's own men don't know about that), so from their POV, it'd seem like Jon was hiding Bran from Stannis as much as from Bolton. And once Stannis leaves the Wall, Old Flint and The Norrey use the first excuse they have to head over. It's possible that Old Flint came to see if Jon would take the opportunity to hand over Bran, and The Norrey meant to help him (since the Norrey lands lay closest to the Gift, Old Flint would probably have to cross them to get back to his own lands). But Jon never said anything to either of them, so they might assume that Jon doesn't think it's safe for Bran to leave whatever bolt-hole they assume Jon is hiding him in.

Although it should be noted that we don't know how much contact the clansmen have had with their fellow Northerners. It's entirely possible that Manderly sent riders into the hills, or even that the Glover/Mormont/Reed coalition sent messengers from Deepwood Motte. They might know about Robb's will, so Old Flint/The Norrey could have gone to scope out Jon as potential king material.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DS, by lowland stark loyalists do you mean the southron knights that are getting their asses handed to them in the snow during Stannis' march on Winterfell? For some reason I doubt these guys are working directly with the clans.

My mental "highland/lowland' division is between the mountain clans and the more formal nobility of the north : Boltons, Umbers, Manderlys etc....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

I'm not sure we know that Robb ever named Jon his heir (if i'm wrong please point me to some text)... we know he was considering it, but until the contents of a certain decree become known, I don't think we can say Jon is Robb's heir for sure.

In any event, pretty sure that as far as the Liddle was concerned, Bran was the heir to Winterfell.

IIRC Jon dies at the end of DWD lol

I know its easy to over look but it does need to be taken into consideration when determining who is next in line for robs succesion.

If he is not reborn aa style.... certainly he lives on in the minds of his fans in these threads lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Flint and Norrey went to the Karstark wedding simply because they caught wind of Jon's plan to let Tormund's wildlings through the Wall (Marsh and the others talked, no doubt). IIRC they made it clear to Jon that they didn't want the wildlings coming onto their land, and they weren't very respectful towards Jon when making that point either (called him "boy" I believe), so they don't seem to consider him a Stark.

It was only when Jon told them he was taking hostages that they bought into his plan, albeit grudgingly. I don't believe they had any sort of ulterior motive in going to the Wall other than ensuring their lands would be protected.

I just noticed that the posters above me were debating this issue months ago. Oh well, I already wrote my opinion on it, so I'll just leave it I guess :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As well as Liddle was at not saying everything he understood (as in who Bran was), I highly doubt that he passed along the information that he had indeed encountered the living heir to WF to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that picked up a sword and went with Stannis. He may have shared that information with the other clan leaders, but there is not reason to think they made it common knowledge to everyone in the North. The fighting men with Stannis do not know about Liddle's Bran encounter. Knowing they still have a Stark to place in charge at WF is information to keep quiet until Bolton and his cronies are gone.

The Norther army won't turn on Stannis, unless he does something directly against the North. For their service and aid, they may ask for the right to pick the next Warden of the North or who will be their representative. The clan leaders knowing that Bran is out there and available, make getting rid of Bolton the first priority. If Stannis shows himself to be honorable and fair, then the North will not have much problem installing a Stark at WF and returning things to how they were prior to Robert's visit to the North (the North being part of the Iron Throne, but ruled automously by a Stark).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm glad you brought this up. For paperback readers of aSoS it starts on page 334.

What I find really interesting is when he refers to Ramsay Bolton (The Bastard's boys, and "flayed men") Liddle says that Ramsay was "dead", but now he's not. And paying good silver for wolfskins (Starks), a man hears, and maybe gold for word of certain other walking dead (I think he's referring directly towards Bran). I wonder if Ramsay is an "Other"? Can anyone remember any passages where he may have been killed? I remember reading that Roose believed Ramsay poisoned his only trueborn son, Domeric. Maybe Ramsay is Domeric reborn as an Other?

The words that come shortly after don't sound like Bran is in any danger from Liddle. It sounds more like he's warning him, because he praises the Stark's for bring peace and security into the area.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...