FOOTBALL!

[cteresa]

[quote name='Loras Bernadotte-LÃ¥ngstrum' post='1386345' date='Jun 6 2008, 10.08']CR is a goner from Man Utd. The player and Madrid have agreed terms, and both clubs will battle over the transfer fee.[/quote]

Maybe. His mother was on tv live last night saying she thought he would play in Manchester next season. His statement was quite full of ifs and whats. If Manchester United really does not want to sell, then can bluntly refuse or squeeze Real Madrid for even more than they are ready to pay. Speaking of which, there was a list of the worlds best paid footballers out a few days, this boy was ranked a lowly 5th place, tsk tsk.

Calibandar, to put it bluntly some lose points:
- if you thinking anybody human thinking twice about getting his salary raised and going to live on a place bit closer to home on about the same conditions is greedy, the world will greatly disappoint you.
- You can´t have it both ways, the one reason Cristiano Ronaldo is in Manchester is because Manchester United paid him more and paid Sporting for it. The whole point of non-amateur football. Maybe of emmigration ( and who is to say somebody earning minimum wage in a wealthy country is not greedy for wanting more? after all unimaginable riches for lots of people in the world).
- For Cristiano Ronaldo to even earn as much as Wayne Rooney or Rio Ferdinand he had to be not just better than them, but better than anybody in the whole country to get paid as much as if he was an english player.
- Footballers earn their money at this age. I was with somebody who was having a 60-somethingth birthday whose comment was "are they going to give the boy lots of money when he is 50"? You don´t know what will happen tomorrow to anybody´s career.

[Black Wizard]

[quote name='Podezine Podane' post='1386819' date='Jun 6 2008, 18.02']Yes. The best Ireland can hope for is a CL or a UEFA final sometime. :)[/quote]
That's a long shot. Irish teams never get past the qualifying rounds so I don't think UEFA would see the benefit in it. Hampden Park has hosted the CL and UEFA Cup Finals in recent years, but if Rangers and Celtic weren't regularly in the Champions League the SFA wouldn't have had a hope in hell of getting those finals.

[Calibandar]

Sorry Teresa but I find all of those arguments for Ronaldo supposedly not being greedy tremendously weak. Let me explain.

[quote]- if you thinking anybody human thinking twice about getting his salary raised and going to live on a place bit closer to home on about the same conditions is greedy, the world will greatly disappoint you.[/quote]

Well, it is true that I am often disappointed in people's morals. But I think that someone who is already earning such an enormous and excessive amount of money as Ronaldo is with his current Man U contract should have no need to look elsewhere. That is my take on it. Ronaldo is being paid extremely well by any standard. I'm not one of those people who will rag on and on about footballers getting way too much money, which you often hear. It's true of course, but at the same time people should get paid what they deserve in respect to what sort of money goes around in the industry.

But I do think that someone who is already showered with cash the way Ronaldo is should not be seeking to get even more, just to get as much money as humanly possible. Surely there is a point when enough is enough even for a professional football player, and you are paid [b]millions [/b]of euros each year to play ball with a club that loves and respects you and with which you can win more prizes, and where you say you are happy. I would assume that money is not the only driving force anymore, but feeling at home with a club and the potential of winning future titles must matter as well.

[quote]For Cristiano Ronaldo to even earn as much as Wayne Rooney or Rio Ferdinand he had to be not just better than them, but better than anybody in the whole country to get paid as much as if he was an english player.[/quote]

Even if this were true, I don't see why this makes him less greedy. You are now talking about him leaving Man U because of a revenge motive.

[quote]Footballers earn their money at this age.[/quote]

Yes, I had grasped that point. I know the thought of working after the age of 35 must be staggering and deeply horrendous for a professional footballer. But because they are getting paid big time now, Ronaldo is already earning millions of euros at Man United. And Man U would probably be willing to spend even more now since they have seen that Ronaldo is all about the money. Let's not pretend that CR is anything but excessively and extremely well-paid already, at one of the three wealthiest clubs in the world. Let's not pretend that Ronaldo is being so poorly paid right now that if he kept on earning like he is now he would be beggar in the streets of Lisboa at the age of 45. Already at this point in his life, he would never ever have to work for money again, and that includes an extensive family that could eat out of his hand.

[Maltaran]

[quote name='Loras Bernadotte-LÃ¥ngstrum' post='1386345' date='Jun 6 2008, 10.08']CR did what Real Madrid expected him to do: He went public and said clearly "I want to go to Madrid next season. Come get me"[/quote]

Actually, he didn't. He said he wants to play for Madrid, but he didn't say when. :P

As for Ireland and stadia, aren't they building one on the Maze?

[cteresa]

[quote name='Calibandar' post='1386980' date='Jun 6 2008, 19.36']Sorry Teresa but I find all of those arguments for Ronaldo supposedly not being greedy tremendously weak. Let me explain.[/quote]

Maybe the fact you claim to be a Manchester United fan has got something to do it ;)

Your argument seems to be just that he gets lots of money already so he should not think of earning more. But it does not work like that. If he is the best, and there are people earning more than him ( and there are, even on the same sport), he has a right to want to be paid as much as the best paid.

[quote name='Calibandar' post='1386980' date='Jun 6 2008, 19.36']But I do think that someone who is already showered with cash the way Ronaldo is should not be seeking to get even more, just to get as much money as humanly possible. Surely there is a point when enough is enough even for a professional football player, and you are paid [b]millions [/b]of euros each year to play ball with a club that loves and respects you and with which you can win more prizes, and where you say you are happy.[/quote]

Same argument applies to why he should have moved from Sporting to Manchester United. They can not ( do not) love him more in Manchester. Sporting could also pay him reasonable ammounts of money to sensible persons. You can´t have the argument both ways or draw the line wherever you want.

BTW watching football games live, I have always been rather amazed at his resilience about the weather, I can assure you one thing, the weather in Madeira is truly not like that. Children in Portugal do not grow up dreaming of playing for Manchester United ( or Arsenal, or Liverpool, I doubt even Real Madrid). Or why there are so many brazillians playing worldwide. Greedy all?

[quote name='Calibandar' post='1386980' date='Jun 6 2008, 19.36']Let's not pretend that Ronaldo is being so poorly paid right now that if he kept on earning like he is now he would be beggar in the streets of Lisboa at the age of 45. Already at this point in his life, he would never ever have to work for money again, and that includes an extensive family that could eat out of his hand.[/quote]

Nobody human is to expected to ignore offers of double salaries and not be allowed to even *think* about it. In 60 years who knows what will happen? But earning more while you can seems sensible. And his statement has been very simple that if things are true as reported ( attention, he mentions just the press and not direct contacts, this is an elegant detail) about money paid to him and to the club ( another elegant detail) he would like to. Maybe he would like better weather ( though honestly Madrid´s weather is not particularly good from my point of view), maybe he likes the style of play in Spain better, maybe he is fed up with english style "tackling". Maybe it is indeed the girlfriend or being a lot closer to Portugal. Maybe he hates short winter days ( I do). Maybe he would like to earn as much or more and have a few days off for Christmas and New Year ( that is very weird about the english premiership for us). He has got a right to think about those things. Then he said, it is not up to him, and it is not. awful human being no? That boy pushes far more hate to him with pretty simple non-evil actions than I would ever think possible.

[Padraig]

[quote name='Republika Hrvmaltska' post='1387008' date='Jun 6 2008, 20.04']As for Ireland and stadia, aren't they building one on the Maze?[/quote]
Well. That's Northern Ireland. :) And another very controversial proposal.

[quote]That's a long shot. Irish teams never get past the qualifying rounds so I don't think UEFA would see the benefit in it. Hampden Park has hosted the CL and UEFA Cup Finals in recent years, but if Rangers and Celtic weren't regularly in the Champions League the SFA wouldn't have had a hope in hell of getting those finals.[/quote]
Not sure that's how UEFA works. Allocating finals isn't based on how good the league is. Its on how good your stadiums are, which is related (naturally) to how good the league is. Most countries don't have 45,000+ capacity stadiums with proper facilities. But UEFA wants the smaller countries to improve its stadium infrastructure. So when a country points at its brand new major stadium, I don't see why UEFA wouldn't reward that country. A CL final might be too grand for what Ireland can offer but certainly a UEFA Cup final is plausible.

[mormont]

On CR: I agree a little with Cali and a little with T. I don't think anyone can reasonably claim that greed plays no part in CR's decision: but as T says, there are other factors too. And in the end, it's his right and I don't condemn him for exercising it. Anyway, as T says, Man U got the player in the first place basically through offering more money (although that was a good career move too, and I don't believe going to Real will be).

There again, CR cannot take the blame entirely. Real, after all, are the ones desperate to offer the player a humungous salary, for reasons of their own which are just as venal and ego-driven as the reasons he's likely to accept. They don't need the player for footballing reasons. They want him for their own vanity, for internal political reasons, and to sell shirts. It's pretty fucked up all round.

On UEFA awarding cup finals, Pod is right - the ability of the host nation's clubs is mostly irrelevant. (In fact it could be arguably a bonus to have clubs who are unlikely to be benefiting from home advantage.) If Irish stadia are up to the level required, they're likely to get one sooner or later: particularly if Irish votes are needed. ;)

[Paddy]

I agree with everything Mormont said.

[Calibandar]

Teresa

Ok, final post about Ronaldo's greed.

My being a Man U fan obviously has nothing to do with it. I might as well say you wouldn't be defending Ronaldo at every turn if he was a Roumanian. As far as I'm concerned, if he wants to go now, yes I'd be dissapointed in him for just leaving for even more money, but it's his choice and I don't believe in keeping a player against his will. This is just about Ronaldo's greed.

I'm not buying the Sporting/Manchester comparison because that was different. The idea is the same, that Ronaldo left for money, but the reality is much different. For one, the salary increase from Sporting to Manchester was monstrous and multiplied in a way that that a transfer from what Man U could offer to what Madrid could offer is not the case. Now, I realize he is asking an outrageous amount of money from Madrid at the moment and will only go if Madrid bury themselves in debt even further and actually pay that amount. At the same time Man U could offer more as well, so the improvement from going to Sporting to Manchester is bigger than it would be from Man U to Madrid.

For two, the difference between Sporting and Manchester is much bigger in other ways as well. Manchester offered a player like Ronaldo great fame that he wouldn't have achieved at a smallish club like Sporting Lisbon. His great talent would not have come to the fore as much if he had stayed at a club that doesn't play in the Champions League for instance. Man United offers CR a chance at the biggest stage and at winning the great prizes.

So you can see that in this way as well, the step from Sporting to Manchester is huge. A step from Manchester to Madrid would not be a step forward at all, lat alone a significant one. Madrid have a good team now, but going there from Man United would be a step back, as we have seen this year.

In short, leaving Sporting for Man U had many advantages. Leaving Manchester United for Madrid has none, except for a higher salary. Hence, it is greed that is the primary motivator here, especially considering that he is already getting an enormous salary at Man U, and could get more if he wanted do.

[quote]BTW watching football games live, I have always been rather amazed at his resilience about the weather, I can assure you one thing, the weather in Madeira is truly not like that. Children in Portugal do not grow up dreaming of playing for Manchester United[/quote]

I see. Western Europeans should be thankful that Ronaldo with his frail mediterranean sentiments even agreed to play in that awful rainy country for millions of euros per year.

I've been to Portugal and Spain in the summer and found the heat crushing. No wonder people are taking siestas all the time. I'm certainly not enjoying more holidays there and I do personally prefer colder climates, like going to Scandinavia, Canada etc. After all, if Ronaldo moves back to Spain/Portugal, well water shortages being what they are in those countries and growing worse every year, in a few years taking a shower with some nice running water in the summer months will be out of the question. I'm sure there is something to be said for yellow, dried up countries as it still draws lots of tourists to the beaches, but to actually live there year round? I could see why people would have no trouble playing in Western Europe.

[The Inquisitor]

[quote name='Calibandar' post='1387551' date='Jun 7 2008, 11.14']Man United offers CR a chance at the biggest stage and at winning the great prizes.[/quote]

As in Real Madrid can't?



[quote]So you can see that in this way as well, the step from Sporting to Manchester is huge. A step from Manchester to Madrid would not be a step forward at all, lat alone a significant one. Madrid have a good team now, but going there from Man United would be a step back, as we have seen this year.[/quote]

Come on Cali, don't make this a pissing contest, because frankly speaking... there's a hardly a comparison to be made between Man Utd and Madrid. Just look at the track record, alright? ;)


[quote]I've been to Portugal and Spain in the summer and found the heat crushing. No wonder people are taking siestas all the time. I'm certainly not enjoying more holidays there and I do personally prefer colder climates, like going to Scandinavia, Canada etc. After all, if Ronaldo moves back to Spain/Portugal, well water shortages being what they are in those countries and growing worse every year, in a few years taking a shower with some nice running water in the summer months will be out of the question. I'm sure there is something to be said for yellow, dried up countries as it still draws lots of tourists to the beaches, but to actually live there year round? I could see why people would have no trouble playing in Western Europe.[/quote]

Congratulations.

That is the most stupid post I've read in the boards in a long long time Cali.

Well done lad! ;)

[Calibandar]

[quote]Just look at the track record, alright?[/quote]

So wait, let me see, if Ronaldo leaves Manchester United now, the European Champion as well as the winner of the strongest national league in Europe, does he go to the Real Madrid of the 50's, or does he go to the Real Madrid of the year 2008-2009? Come back to me when you're done pondering that question and then you can confess that track record has nothing to do with it. Is going to Real Madrid a step forward in terms of getting to play for a better team or is it not?

Obviously, it is not. I'm sure you're aware that aside from the facts mentioned above, it was AS Roma that rounded up Real Madrid quite easily. And it was AS Roma that was soundly defeated in a [i]double victory [/i]by Man United later on. Your position cannot be maintained. For Ronaldo to go to Madrid it has to be because of financial gain.

[quote]As in Real Madrid can't?[/quote]

Strawman alert. I did not say he could not win prizes at Madrid. I said going from Manchester to Madrid is not improvement when it comes to chances of winning the big leagues.

Re: Weather

I'm sure you enjoy only being able to drink water from bottles. I'm sure you enjoy the massive water shortages Spain suffered even last year. I'm sure you relish the prospect of imminent rising temperatures and the increase of said water shortages in the mediterranean countries. Villages in the South of France needed goverment help in 2007 to keep themselves alive by having tanks of water hauled in from elsewhere, for months on end. I'm just giving the facts here.

I think this complaining about the weather in Western Europe is about as ignorant as it gets. People living there are far better off and the climate for playing football is more pleasant than the scorching heat in the South.

[Black Wizard]

[quote name='Republika Hrvmaltska' post='1387008' date='Jun 6 2008, 20.04']As for Ireland and stadia, aren't they building one on the Maze?[/quote]
Is the Maze some sort of prison?

[The Inquisitor]

Cali, for heaven's sake what did you smoke or drink last night? ;)


[quote name='Calibandar' post='1387570' date='Jun 7 2008, 12.18']So wait, let me see, if Ronaldo leaves Manchester United now, the European Champion as well as the winner of the strongest national league in Europe[/quote]

Opinion.

[quote], does he go to the Real Madrid of the 50's, or does he go to the Real Madrid of the year 2008-2009? Come back to me when you're done pondering that question and then you can confess that track record has nothing to do with it. Is going to Real Madrid a step forward in terms of getting to play for a better team or is it not?[/quote]

Alright let's make this even more simple: let's make a poll all throughout the footie world and ask young players where would they rather play for whatever reasons, Madrid or ManU? ;)

I know a certain portuguese youngster said he would like to play in Madrid ;)

[quote]Obviously, it is not. I'm sure you're aware that aside from the facts mentioned above, it was AS Roma that rounded up Real Madrid quite easily. And it was AS Roma that was soundly defeated in a [i]double victory [/i]by Man United later on. Your position cannot be maintained. For Ronaldo to go to Madrid it has to be because of financial gain.[/quote]

:bang:

Yes, because if England loses to France 1-0 and Scotland beats France, then obviously Scotland is better than England.

Come on Cali, that's a ridiculous argument.

[quote]Strawman alert. I did not say he could not win prizes at Madrid. I said going from Manchester to Madrid is not improvement when it comes to chances of winning the big leagues.[/quote]

Strawman you say? Bollocks... you used the "at least he has a chance to win trophies here" implying that in Madrid he'll not enjoy as many chances as in Man Utd and belittling his possible move. Not only it is bollocks but it holds your personal opinion that Man Utd>>>>Madrid.

Which is subjective and arguable; and sadly since the only objective measure we have is to compare track records and silverware, ridiculous.


[quote]Re: Weather

I'm sure you enjoy only being able to drink water from bottles. I'm sure you enjoy the massive water shortages Spain suffered even last year. I'm sure you relish the prospect of imminent rising temperatures and the increase of said water shortages in the mediterranean countries. Villages in the South of France needed goverment help in 2007 to keep themselves alive by having tanks of water hauled in from elsewhere, for months on end. I'm just giving the facts here.[/quote]

What are you talking about? Do I drink water from bottles? Just what do you think you know?

Moreover, what the bloody hell has it to do with what we are discussing here?!?!? ;)

[quote]I think this complaining about the weather in Western Europe is about as ignorant as it gets. People living there are far better off and the climate for playing football is more pleasant than the scorching heat in the South.[/quote]

Opinion.

Irrelevant.

And how less ignorant is maintaining that the weather in the Isles is more pleasant? ;) I'll give you 20€'s if you can convince me of that with reasonable and objective arguments.

[cteresa]

Ah, weather, to what we are reduced. I am with Loras. A couple comments cos I just can not stop this didactical impulse:

- There are no water shortages in Portugal. Maybe some tiny tiny villages now and then due to specific supply conditions but I don´t remember water have been rationed or cut, in a city or twon. I was shocked to read one Harry Potter book which starts with a hosepipe ban in the UK. I googled and it apparently happens frequently on hot summers. Strange, but here no.

- Summer weather conditions got no relevance to the story since that is usually when players are on HOLIDAY and can go where they please. It´s in winter they got to stay and play ( really northern places and germany exceptions of course)

- I drink tap water ( in Portugal yes). I don´t know of any place in Portugal or Spain where tap water is not safe to drink. Lots of people drink bottled water as some sort of taste thing, and they probably do it as well in the UK.

- As I said I don´t like the weather in Madrid. Lisbon is much better. And Madeira is much better than Lisbon. But Madrid still has probably better weather than Manchester.

- your tastes on what are good weather got no relevance to the question because everybody´s tastes are influenced by childhood and we are talking of somebody whose native environment would be much different than yours.

- I would not call anything about Cristiano Ronaldo frail. Check game of training photos in winter. I tend to find it very funny ( and somewhat scary) to see him gloveless and wearing shorts while Wayne Rooney wore gloves or tights or long pants. Same thing about Anderson gloveless versus Tevez wearing more clothes. When a portuguese and a brazillian go around ignoring the cold more than an englishman and an argentinian, it´s just worth looking. so I am sure he can manage and without complaint. It does not mean he might not prefer other spots.

-sporting same thing, just a matter of scale, and risk and uprooting.

- who cares? euro starts today!

[kiko]

[quote name='Calibandar' post='1387570' date='Jun 7 2008, 12.18']So wait, let me see, if Ronaldo leaves Manchester United now, [b]that he acomplished everything he could with this team[/b], the European Champion, [b]thanks to him[/b], as well as the winner of the strongest national league, in Europe [b]thanks to the strongest players who can be bought for money[/b], does he go to the Real Madrid of the 50's, or does he go to the Real Madrid of the year 2008-2009, [b]that tries to contract the strongest players, like,..well him[/b]? Come back to me when you're done pondering that question and then you can confess that track record has nothing to do with it. Is going to Real Madrid, [b]the most prestigious club on earth by a huge margin[/b] a step forward in terms of getting to play for a better team, [b]even made better by getting the strongest player[/b], or is it not?

Obviously, [b]to all ManU fans[/b], it is not. I'm sure you're aware that aside from the facts mentioned above, it was AS Roma that rounded up Real Madrid quite easily. And it was AS Roma that was soundly defeated in a [i]double victory [/i]by Man United later on. Your position cannot be maintained[b] as long as I don't want it[/b]. For Ronaldo to go to Madrid it has to be because of financial gain[b], which is highly unuasual for, say 0.00001 percent of all professional athlets and even more understandable when you think that he goes to the best club on earth, is near his country and family and enjoys better weather[/b].



Strawman alert. I did not say he could not win prizes at Madrid. I said going from Manchester to Madrid is not improvement when it comes to chances of winning the big leagues, [b]a feat he has already done[/b].

Re: Weather

I'm sure you enjoy only being able to drink water from bottles. I'm sure you enjoy the massive water shortages Spain suffered even last year. I'm sure you relish the prospect of imminent rising temperatures and the increase of said water shortages in the mediterranean countries. Villages in the South of France needed goverment help in 2007 to keep themselves alive by having tanks of water hauled in from elsewhere, for months on end. I'm just giving the facts here, [b]as reported by millions of tourists who have to go through this ordeal every year[/b].

I think this complaining about the weather in Western Europe is about as ignorant as it gets. People living there are far better off and the climate for playing football is more pleasant than the scorching heat in the South, [b]especially when you are not born in this climate - wait![/b][/quote]

fixed it for you

[Padraig]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1387572' date='Jun 7 2008, 11.29']Is the Maze some sort of prison?[/quote]
Was. A rather infamous prison where political prisoners were held. Now that the times have improved, they are trying to think about what to do with the site. Its very controversial.

As for the Ronaldo thing. As Kiko said, its not only about the money. Winning the Spanish league title is obviously an attraction. He has already won everything meaningful in England. (Personally I don't care about what he does but Cal's argument was way too one-sided). And bringing weather into it is stupid. He was reared in Portugal. Its not like he is totally unfamiliar with such a climate.

Edited to add: Predictions today. I think the Swiss to win 1-0 (sadly). And 2-2 between the Portugesse and Turkey. The latter should be a good game.

[The Inquisitor]

Ok, my predictions:

Switzerland 1 - Czech Rep 1

Portugal 2 - Turkey 1


Can't wait for the kickoff. :)

[Maltaran]

[quote name='Black Wizard' post='1387572' date='Jun 7 2008, 11.29']Is the Maze some sort of prison?[/quote]

Used to be. They all got released under the Good Friday Agreement, and the place was closed. There are plans to build a sports stadium there which would be used for football, rugby and GAA games.

[Sir Thursday]

[quote name='Erzulie the Unruly' post='1386623' date='Jun 6 2008, 16.10']So, anyone up for playing some fantasy football during the Euros?

I've set up a league at www.euro2008.com called Westeros with 245557-39596 as the joining code. Anyone and everyone welcome.

If someone else has already set one up, I'll be happy to join that as well.

My team are called Athlete's Feet, and feature the following line-up:

[b]Cech

Mellberg - Materazzi - Corluka

Kranjcar - Ballack - Pirlo - Sionko

Torres - Nuno Gomes (yuck) - Klose[/b]

Sub: [b]Dellas[/b]

Anyone game?[/quote]


The Defenstrators are in!


Sir Thursday

[cteresa]

[quote name='Podezine Podane' post='1387589' date='Jun 7 2008, 12.22']And bringing weather into it is stupid. He was reared in Portugal. Its not like he is totally unfamiliar with such a climate.[/quote]

To be fair weather in Madrid is nastier than in Lisbon. But surely nicer than Lisbon - and very subjective, it´s not just weather it is how short days are in winter, you can go weeks, even a whole month without seeing the sun which seems like nothing but is oddly depressing and just Not Right. Talking of weather, practically no place in the world has got better weather than Madeira ( which is also very very beautiful.. and practically everywhere on it you can see the sea.) so it is all downhill from there. But some is better than others, and for somebody who spent 5 years/winters in northern England, I can totally understand the appeal in a
move south if given a chance.

PS - Madrid is sadly very far away from the sea. Not ideal really for somebody portuguese, specially an islander.

Kiko :rofl: very true

We just lost the second goalkeeper to a broken wrist! Bad omen, bad psychologically, I feel awful. Wonder if UEFA will allow us to call another one and who - maybe Eduardo from Vitória de Setúbal who is very good at penalty kicks and a great season. Third goalkeeper is a baby (19 years old I think) and IMO I would be nervous..

Platini has some very interesting statements about Porto´s situation and wanting to punish "cheaters". I heard rumours (sourceless so might be portuguese rumours who are unduly influenced by Porto´s seeming untouchability) that the ban will be lifted on appeal, I heard whines about one of the judges being a self-acknowledged Juventus tiffoso ( important difference, Juventus lost a title, got relegated and so forbidden to participate in next year´s CL. That seems like a real punishment, while deducting 6 points, sorry not quite enough). But I got hopes that the cheating cheaters might get punished *something* after all.,